PEP Episode 058 — Surcharging Situationships: The Dual Pricing Dilemma Merchants Can’t Seem to Solve

Dual Pricing Is Exploding—But Most Merchants Are Getting It Wrong

If you’ve noticed more businesses offering different prices for cash versus credit, you’re not imagining things. Dual pricing is gaining serious traction among merchants looking to offset rising card processing costs. But behind the growing popularity lies a compliance maze that too many business owners are navigating blind.

In this episode, Joe Wilkins, Managing Partner at Great Credit Card Processing, (https://greatcreditcardprocessing.com/), joins Leo Arzumanyan and Jeremy Stock of Global Legal Law Firm to break down the real-world challenges of cash discounting and dual pricing—and why getting it wrong can carry serious consequences.

At first glance, it sounds simple: “Every product has two prices—one for cash, one for cards.” But as Wilkins and the legal team explain, proper implementation is anything but simple. From receipt formatting and signage to item-level pricing and customer disclosures, the fine print matters. And while dual pricing is legal in all 50 states, improper execution remains one of the most common compliance pitfalls in the industry.

Here’s where the conversation delivers real value for payment professionals and merchants alike:

• Why ‘following the crowd’ leads to bad implementations
• How pricing strategies can trigger regulatory attention and consumer backlash
• The compliance differences between surcharging and dual pricing—and why it matters

Joe also shares how his team helps merchants stay compliant through hands-on support, including in-person training, ongoing audits, and even covering the cost of menu and POS updates to reflect compliant dual pricing structures.

The conversation highlights a key regional insight: states like New York have significantly higher merchant awareness thanks to public education campaigns. But for multi-state operators, navigating inconsistent consumer expectations adds another layer of complexity.
Whether you’re a merchant looking to adopt dual pricing, an ISO building out a compliant offering, or a payments consultant advising clients, this episode delivers clear, actionable insights into a space that’s becoming more crowded—and more regulated—by the day.

As Joe puts it: “Payment processing doesn’t have to be confusing. You just need the right partner and the right playbook.”

Leo Arzumanyan (00:00):

But when it comes to cash discounting slash dual pricing, that’s legal in all 50 states, there’s no state to our knowledge, and Joe, we actually internally do every quarter refresher where we go out and research all the laws to see if there have been any updates to our guides. We have internal guides that we provide to our clients, to our knowledge. As of this moment, there are no states that prohibit cash discounting slash dual pricing. It is legal in all 50 states, and it’s actually pretty, the way that it’s written in the states that have laws on the books regarding this issue, it’s pretty uniform. But that kind of goes back to the issue that we’ve been discussing, which is it’s really interesting to see how such a pretty simple concept, not something that’s legally nuanced or difficult to understand, gets so misunderstood and viewed in so many different ways by different merchants

Jeremy Stock (00:53):

And misapplied.

Leo Arzumanyan (00:53):

Misapplied. Yeah, it’s really interesting subject that we’re dealing with.

Jeremy Stock (00:58):

Welcome to the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. We hope you enjoy this episode. We’re really excited today in studio joining us, we have associate attorney, Leo Arzu Manian, who’s part of our transactional team here at Global Eagle Law Firm, and then joining us remotely. We’re really excited. Joe Wilkins from great credit card Processing. Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re looking forward to a great conversation.

Joe Wilkins (01:31):

Thanks for having me. Excited for the conversation.

Leo Arzumanyan (01:33):

Nice meeting you, Joe. Really excited to talk to you about the topics we got on hand today. Absolutely.

Jeremy Stock (01:39):

So Joe, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into payments?

Joe Wilkins (01:43):

Sure. Well, I’m Joe Wilkins, managing partner of Great Credit Card Processing. We’re a small firm located in upstate New York. I’ve been in the payments industry since 2015. My partner, Jim, has been in the industry since 2007, so we bring a tremendous amount of expertise to the industry today, primarily, we’re working with 60% of our book is service-based, and right now we’re really focused on POS driven business. As everyone knows that’s where the market is going. We’ve really been working with a lot of multi-location restaurants who are growing organically. One client we started with in 2024 just opened their six location. Me personally, I live in upstate New York and work across the northeast region. I’m a proud father of three, two boys, 12 and 10, and a daughter who’s five most weekends are filled with family time. And I’m also an active member of the b and I group in Scranton professionally. But at the end of the day, I’m just here to help business owners understand their processing, stay compliant and grow their business.

Leo Arzumanyan (02:52):

That’s great. If I could ask, how did you exactly get into this industry? Because it’s always interesting to hear people get into an industry that I never about until I started working at this law firm. I never even knew this existed as an area of law or an area that people work in.

Joe Wilkins (03:05):

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I was actually in the same boat. I actually transitioned into the industry coming from a lucrative career in healthcare sales. I was a director of sales for multi-channel marketing firm. We focused on selling into medical device companies, and I got invited into the industry from a good friend of mine who actually had started a small ISO and I got recruited in, we grew the business in first year from 750 k, got it up to 3 million a year annual revenue. So it was a really, really strange way to get in the industry. I decided to stay into it and grow myself personally because there was a huge need for what we do and there’s a lot of opportunity in the industry.

Leo Arzumanyan (03:54):

It’s funny, every time I hear people answer that question, it’s almost always the same. They kind of just find themselves landing in the industry rather than seeking it out.

Jeremy Stock (04:02):

Yeah, absolutely. It’s so true. I think what you said, Leo is accurate, right? No one knew what payments was, especially what, 10, 15 years ago when our founding partner, Chris Dryden got into it, Joe, it was around 2008, and they just so happened to have a client who was in the payment space

Leo Arzumanyan (04:24):

And

Jeremy Stock (04:25):

They started, but they saw ahead, they go, this seems like it’s the future.

Leo Arzumanyan (04:28):

It definitely is. It’s funny, whenever I try to tell people what I do, I kind have to dumb it down for them. They don’t get it. If I say I’m a payments attorney, just let ’em know. When you go to the restaurant and you see those little surcharge lines, everything on the back end of all of that is what I’m dealing with. The contracts, the compliance work, et cetera.

Joe Wilkins (04:45):

Yeah, definitely.

Jeremy Stock (04:46):

Yeah. So Joe, tell us about great credit card processing. Give us your elevator pitch.

Joe Wilkins (04:52):

Sure. So as I mentioned earlier, we’re a small firm located in upstate New York. We focus mainly on upstate New York and Northeastern Pennsylvania. We do have at least one merchant account in 13 states today. So we are growing, but really what we focus on at great credit card processing, we bring integrity and honesty into the payments industry. So yes, I help businesses cut their fees, but more importantly, we’re helping them stay compliant. And anytime one of our merchants, a new customer or existing customers looking to grow into payment solutions, we’re here to help them choose the right solution for their business.

Leo Arzumanyan (05:34):

That’s great. And what would you say is, I guess let’s go with the number one issue that you see come your way most frequently.

Joe Wilkins (05:42):

So right now, the number one issue I would say is revolving around, as you guys know, surcharging, dual pricing and cash discounting. I do work primarily, like I said, in two states, New York State and Pennsylvania, and the two couldn’t be more different. New York State is very strict on what you can do. Pennsylvania is sort of trending that way, but it’s not as strict. But I would say it’s not so much the hardware and software is not the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge is the pull through and the compliance on the merchant’s end in terms of doing exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. A hundred

Jeremy Stock (06:27):

Percent.

Leo Arzumanyan (06:27):

So can you give us an example? One of your merchants comes to you says, what’s the question? Are they saying, how do I implement dual pricing? Are they showing you the prices on their shelves and saying, are we doing it accurately? Just give us that whole rundown of start to finish, how you see that.

Joe Wilkins (06:41):

The one area that I think is the most challenging, let’s face it, you can tell a merchant or a business owner the right way to do something, but that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily going to do it. The biggest challenge I see today is when you from start to finish, you sit down, you explain the program, the merchant decides to opt into dual pricing, you go over what the guidelines are, you implement the system, you do an installation, you train the staff, you train the merchant themselves, and you make sure they understand. And then a month later when you come back to do a checkup, you see that they’re doing it the way that they want to do it,

Leo Arzumanyan (07:20):

Right? We that all the time.

Joe Wilkins (07:22):

So you’re almost having to sell the concept or dual pricing two and three and from five times. That’s the biggest challenge we see. Wow.

Leo Arzumanyan (07:31):

And if you could step back a few steps, actually, how about you let our listeners know? For those who don’t know what you’re actually talking about, what is dual pricing, if you can get into that?

Joe Wilkins (07:41):

So the way we describe dual pricing is simple. Your business now has two prices for everything in your store. Your services now have two prices. Your products now have two prices. You have a cash price and a credit price. That’s the simplest way to explain it. Just like you see at a gas station is the easiest way. You see up on the signage, you see the credit price and a cash price usually is below that or vice versa is the way I like to explain it.

Leo Arzumanyan (08:08):

And I love how you mentioned simple multiple times because I view that it is really simple as well. But what you just said, we constantly see that issue, whether it’s with our clients or our clients’ customers. You explain this seemingly simple topic, but for some reason no one seems to follow through to the end and they just revert back to what they think they should be doing. I guess I would ask you, do you have a reason why you think that may be occurring? Is it because they think it’s too onerous to implement two prices on every item, or what is it? Because the concept itself doesn’t seem to be too difficult to understand.

Joe Wilkins (08:40):

Yeah, I’m glad you’re asking this question. I think there’s two different areas that a merchant can get caught up in. Number one, I think it’s keeping up with the Joneses merchant down the street. Does it this way,

Leo Arzumanyan (08:51):

Right?

Joe Wilkins (08:51):

Right. Good point. So that’s the way I want to it or that’s the way they do it and it works. And then two, you’ve got the idea that they want to advertise the lower price to draw customers in. Now the problem with that is the consumer laws and all the regulations and guidelines are around these guardrails that are around what a merchant can and can’t do are all to avoid predatory advertising. So you’re walking a fine line with a merchant. Obviously we don’t want to discourage them from adopting dual pricing for a lot of different reasons, but we also want to make sure that they’re not doing something that’s going to get them in hot water.

Leo Arzumanyan (09:34):

And those are great points.

Joe Wilkins (09:36):

I think it’s two, it’s they want to advertise the lower price, which we understand, and they can do it. They just have to do it the right way. And two, the mom and pop shop down the road does it this way. So that’s the way they want to do it.

Leo Arzumanyan (09:49):

Right. I think those are fantastic points. And you brought up another interesting angle that we could attack this from, which is all of this is really centered around protecting the consumer.

Leo Arzumanyan (09:58):

And there’s various areas of law that touch on that. It’s not just the car brand rules. They have their own rules when it comes to advertising, how prices should be advertised, and all different regulatory agencies have their own requirements. So it’s a mess. And what I think another reason for this sort of lack of consistency is it flows down from the top. There’s a lack of consistency across the country when it comes to these issues. Every state does things either slightly different or very different depending on the state you’re talking about. They all have their own requirements. Some states are completely silent on these issues. So you have to just cobble together some sort of analysis from wherever you can to provide guidance to the extent possible. And so I think it’s just a really interesting area. Where’re anywhere every, it seems like almost every month you’re getting new regulations proposed, introduced in various state legislatures when it comes to surcharging or cash discounting, dual pricing, but it almost seems like none of the states are speaking to one another.

Joe Wilkins (10:59):

So

Leo Arzumanyan (10:59):

You’re getting this kind of hobbled, cobbled together, patchwork framework of dual pricing, surcharging, cash discounting, and yeah, I think that’s another area where it really just leads these merchants in a state of confusion.

Jeremy Stock (11:15):

100%. I mean, can we talk also gentlemen about compliance and the administrative cost behind that? I know on one sense, you’re right, Leo, it’s like the concept isn’t that difficult to see, but if you are a liquor store owner and you’ve got literally even in your small shop, 1500

Leo Arzumanyan (11:33):

Items

Jeremy Stock (11:34):

To have two separate price tags on each thing, and as you guys know, those prices are constantly changing, of

Leo Arzumanyan (11:41):

Course.

Jeremy Stock (11:42):

So you have these types of things of concerns for your typically I think your mom and pops, because obviously your large merchants can afford to implement these things and pay the right people to do it correctly, et cetera. But I think at the ground level, I think you’re seeing some difficulty for the mom and pop shops.

Leo Arzumanyan (11:59):

And that’s a great point, Jeremy. I defer to Joe on that. I’m sure you see that a lot more on your end versus I’m dealing on the, here’s the compliance, but I don’t see it from that side of the angle.

Joe Wilkins (12:08):

Yeah, there’s actually one that comes to mind that I’m actually dealing with. They’ve got about 500 items in their inventory, and it’s a distributor. And one of the things that came up was, what happens when I want to change my pricing? One of the ways we suggest is to obviously buy a label maker something that you can, and then just maybe have your file, make sure it’s saved in an Excel spreadsheet versus on the POS system itself, making sure you own that data is the merchant is very important, so that if you do want to make wholesale changes to your inventory, you could build a process that’s going to allow you to print off all your prices within a day or two rather than it taking a week or month, update your pricing.

Leo Arzumanyan (12:53):

And what I would say is, yeah, we get it. It is a bit of a big upfront cost to get into compliance, but you really don’t want to deal with the cost that will come your way if you are found not following the rules and the regulations and the car brands rules because for example, we had just a client recently who emailed me and Chris Dryden, the founding partner of our firm who deals in this compliance sector that I do, and one of his merchants was charged a hefty amount for improperly displaying the prices of their goods. And he’s like, Hey guys, here’s what happened with one of my merchants. Can you lemme know, I thought we were doing this right way. And he sent us a bunch of pictures of how everything is listed in the store just to see, for us to analyze.

Leo Arzumanyan (13:38):

And unfortunately I have to go back to him and say, Hey, look, this is all done completely incorrectly. You are, your merchant is improperly surcharging their customers. They’re not implementing a proper bill pricing program. And then from there we’re like, here’s what you got to do to get them into compliance. Make sure every price, there’s two prices, a card price and a cash price. And what we like to tell them, which is, I don’t believe it’s actually written in any statute of any state, but we just find that this is the best way to do it. We like to tell our clients or who are instructing the merchants how to comply. We like to tell ’em, Hey, look, put the card price first and then the cash price. The reason is because if you do it the other way, you may find a consumer who’s confused and views it as an improper surcharge and you don’t want to deal with that headache, get in front of it before that even gets in front of you, put the card price first, then the cash price, and then they can’t say this was an improper surcharge because you’re making it very clear for them when they get to the register what they’re going to pay.

Leo Arzumanyan (14:42):

And ultimately that is what all of these consumer protection laws, these regulations, these rules are aimed at addressing. Does the consumer, what they’re going to pay when they get to checkout. If you look at all these laws, whether they’ve already been enacted or they’ve been proposed in states legislatures, you can really boil down the entire summary of each legislation to that one sentence, does the consumer understand what they’re going to pay? And if not, then you got a lot of issues at your hand.

Jeremy Stock (15:14):

Joe, I’d love to hear you comment on, you brought up Pennsylvania versus New York in terms of the differences there. What are you noticing in terms of, can you talk about maybe some of the details related to that? And Leo, obviously I’d like to get your thoughts on certainly New York and what’s New York’s done.

Joe Wilkins (15:31):

So I’ll start by saying last February, New York State when they passed some legislation that said very strict around what you can and can’t do, they really want the signage clear and concise, no more line items on your receipt, all that, no more non-cash adjustment. But what they did is they circulated also some videos on YouTube that have basically gotten in the hands of the consumer. So what I’ll say first and foremost is the consumers in New York state are much more educated than maybe those in Pennsylvania, if that makes sense. So it’s not so much, the rules are a lot different. They are, but I would say in New York State, you’re dealing with a lot of consumers who are really hammering the merchants saying, look, you’re doing something incorrectly. I just saw this video or I saw something on the nightly news that said you’re not supposed to be doing this. So we do hear that a lot more in New York state than we do in Pennsylvania.

Leo Arzumanyan (16:31):

That’s really interesting. Yeah. Jeremy, what you mentioned, or actually what Joe mentioned just now, the rules when it comes to surcharging do differ pretty significantly, I would say depending on each state, but when it comes to cash discounting slash dual pricing, that’s legal in all 50 states. There’s no state to our knowledge, and Joe, we actually internally do every quarter refresher where we go out and research all the laws to see if there have been any updates to ours. We have internal guides that we provide to our clients, to our knowledge. As of this moment, there are no states that prohibit cash discount slash dual pricing. It is legal in all 50 states, and it’s actually pretty, the way that it’s written in the states that have laws on the books regarding this issue, it’s pretty uniform. That kind of goes back to the issue that we’ve been discussing, which is it’s really interesting to see how such a pretty simple concept, not something that’s legally nuanced or difficult to understand, gets so misunderstood and viewed in so many different ways by different merchants and

Jeremy Stock (17:34):

Misapplied.

Leo Arzumanyan (17:34):

Misapplied. Yeah, it, it’s really interesting subject that we’re dealing with

Joe Wilkins (17:38):

And it’s like we’re kind of almost at a really interesting point too, because merchants aren’t going to go backwards. They don’t want to go backwards and start paying the fee. So as professionals, we really have to do a good job of pushing forward and really getting them to buy into doing it the right way. We don’t want them to get fines. We don’t, obviously don’t want to get fines ourselves. So we really got to make sure that if they want to avoid paying the fee themself, they’ve really got to adapt and do it the right way.

Leo Arzumanyan (18:06):

What would you say is a way that your company addresses these challenges?

Joe Wilkins (18:10):

I’m glad you asked. So one of the things that we take a real personal approach. I know a lot of companies say this white glove service, we really do, from the time that a merchant signs on to the time that they get their first statement with us, they probably see me in their shop probably 10 or 15 times, and we’re doing paperwork in person. We’re not doing it through DocuSign in most cases. We’re doing it in person, we’re doing the installation, we’re doing trainings with the merchant, we’re doing trainings with the staff. We’re also then, in a lot of cases, we’re offering to cover the cost of menu updates or enhancements so that they’re not laid with the burden of, Hey, we want to adopt this and save four or five, six, $700 a month, but we also don’t want to pay the same amount to get our menus updated. So a lot of times we are a little different in that, that we’re actually offering to cover the cost of that upfront. That’s

Leo Arzumanyan (19:07):

Impressive. I hadn’t really heard much of that being offered. So that really makes you guys stand out. Where would you say, if you could just briefly tell us a little bit about high risk and where you see things going in the coming years, how would you view that?

Joe Wilkins (19:22):

Right, so high risk, we definitely will do high risk accounts, but they are, they’re high risk, so we actually tend to shy away from a little bit. I’d say the highest risk in our portfolio right now is the merchants and maybe lack of transparency for both merchants and the consumers like we’ve been talking about. But where I see the future with ISOs is education, standing strong ethically, even if you might lose a deal here and there, make sure you’re standing on ethics because that client, that merchant will be back within a short period of that, even if you do lose a deal and full disclosure, make sure that your merchants know where you stand on certain topics and issues and make sure your pricing is transparent.

Leo Arzumanyan (20:07):

Any particular industries you see that are emerging that are going to be under the high risk categories? Just let me bring one up myself. I’m sure Jeremy could speak on this because he does all of our client intake. Something new that I’ve been seeing come our way is a lot of questions about research peptides and that whole set of drugs that are being sold, and am I compliant with this or that? How do I stay compliant in the sale of this product or that product? Right. Jeremy, you can speak on that. You’ve been seeing those come in.

Jeremy Stock (20:33):

Yeah. Joe, I’m not sure if that’s cost your radar much yet, but the whole e-commerce related to these research peptides, as Leo was pointing out, we get a lot of merchants in this space also in the nutraceuticals. It gets a little squishy on the edges as it always does, but to give you just one quick example, these are research peptides. We have clients who never made a single transaction, a single credit card transaction for the sale of these peptides, which aren’t even illegal to begin with, and they’re being thrown on the MasterCard match list, which I’m sure you’re aware of. So we have a number of clients that we’re actually in litigation, we’re suing on their behalf related to this because they haven’t broken the card brand rules, and yet they’re being thrown on a five-year prohibition. That’s a problem.

Joe Wilkins (21:25):

Yeah, no, that’s interesting. And matter of fact, I tend to stay away from high risk because at this point in my career, there’s a lot of red tape. There’s a lot of things that they battle that I just historically have just not wanted to take on.

Leo Arzumanyan (21:41):

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Makes ton of sense. Yeah,

Joe Wilkins (21:43):

But I’d love to, trust me, there’s a lot of savings that we had. There’s a lot of those industries, A lot of those merchants are underserved for sure.

Leo Arzumanyan (21:51):

Oh, yeah. I’m sure. I mean, the more risk, I guess, the more reward, right?

Jeremy Stock (21:54):

Yeah. Yeah. You’re right. Exactly. Sometimes, right?

Leo Arzumanyan (21:56):

Yeah. Sometimes.

Jeremy Stock (21:57):

Joe, as we’re, I think we’re coming to the last few minutes here of this podcast today. A question I was just curious about, maybe from the listener perspective, what do you say to a merchant who comes to you? Maybe you’ve just onboarded them, Joe, and they say to you, Joe, I don’t want a dual price. I just don’t want to mess with the hassle of it. What’s your response? What are the alternatives?

Joe Wilkins (22:19):

Well, I would say do what you feel is right for your business, for sure. If you as the business owner don’t feel comfortable doing something, then 100% you shouldn’t do it. I actually think, as a matter of fact, that you bring that up. A lot of merchants nowadays feel like they almost have to. I’ve actually, in some cases where maybe a merchant is just getting started, I’ve actually had to slow them down and say to them, now, look, I just want to make sure you understand. I know that you see it a lot out there. You don’t have to charge an additional fee. And surprisingly enough, I’ve actually had a couple instances like that saying, oh, you know what? I’m glad you brought that up. I was thinking that. I was wondering if I actually have to charge a fee in addition if I’m accepting credit cards.

Joe Wilkins (22:58):

So it is something for every merchant or service rep to keep in mind that in the back of some merchant’s mind, they’re wondering, do I have to charge a fee? But I would say that, just remember this, that payment processing, it doesn’t really have to be confusing. And sometimes when you start going down the rabbit hole of this stuff and you’re trying to save three and 4%, you’re stepping over pennies to pick up nickels. You’re making it a little more complicated than it needs to be. So if you’re not comfortable with everything you hear from the representative that you’re talking to, I would say just get yourself with an experienced merchant sales rep. Somebody’s been doing it for a while. They can really give you a fair and honest price and someone who will come back and show you a few times a year that you are in fact getting that fair and honest price, and it hasn’t escalated over time.

Jeremy Stock (23:47):

Excellent.

Leo Arzumanyan (23:48):

That was great. Thanks, Joe. I mean, you brought up a lot of really interesting topics today. I guess I want to leave you with the last word. Let us know what’s the biggest takeaway you want to leave us with? Where can potential new clients of yours reach out and speak with you? Are you planning to expand your services to states beyond the ones you’re currently servicing? Just give ’em the whole pitch. Let ’em know where they can find you and what you’re going to be doing in the

Joe Wilkins (24:11):

Future. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. We are focused on growing the business. We are looking for a particular type of client these days, someone who’s more established and looking to grow. Like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, we have, one of our favorite stories here is a small restaurant in upstate New York. They started their first location with us in 2014 or 2024, and they have just now opened their sixth restaurant with us this past month and looking to open their seventh next month. So we’re looking for businesses who really need sort of the extra level that it takes to multiply their business. So we want to grow. We want to grow with the right type of merchants. But I will say this, if you are a business owner and you’re looking to accept payments, ask questions, and if you’re an agent, lead with education, those two things I would say are most important.

Leo Arzumanyan (25:02):

Yeah, I’ll finish also with that. Always ask questions before you proceed. I can’t tell you how many times, just from my own context of what I do with the contracts and the agreement work that I am always doing day in and day out. So many times I tell our clients, I wish you came to us first before entering into these agreements and asked us questions because you really screwed yourself, and now there’s only so much we can do. Anything you don’t understand on the legal front, the compliance front, ask those questions beforehand. That way you’re better suited going forward.

Joe Wilkins (25:30):

Absolutely. Great advice. Excellent.

Jeremy Stock (25:32):

Thank you so much, Joe. Those of you listening right now, please, you can find Joe Wilkins from great credit card Processing. Joe, I love the website. It’s so simple. Great credit card processing.com. We will have you link down below. It was a real pleasure, Joe. Wish you the best. We’d love to have you back on sometime. Leo, as always, thank you for joining us, bringing your expertise.

Leo Arzumanyan (25:52):

Thank you, Joe. Joe really knows what he’s talking about, so reach out to him for sure. Absolutely.

Joe Wilkins (25:56):

Thank you, Leo. Thank you, Jeremy.

Jeremy Stock (25:58):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. Visit us online today at global legal law firm.com.