PEP Episode 082 — M&A Tech Diligence for Payments: The “Technical Carfax” You Need | Meet Traceless.com

Social Engineering Beats Your Stack: Fix Identity or Get Breached

A single phone call to a help desk shouldn’t sink a global brand—yet it happens. We dig into how social engineering bypasses expensive tools, why identity verification matters at the exact human moments work gets done, and how to measure cyber risk before it becomes tomorrow’s headline. With Peter Segerstrom of Traceless (https://traceless.com/) —a CTO turned advisor who’s audited stacks for acquisitions and built teams from a spare bedroom to scale—we unpack the messy reality of software in payments and fintech: open‑source dependencies, brittle architectures, migrations that stall, and the quiet warts you inherit when you buy code along with revenue.

Christopher Dryden, Esq., traces with Peter how a simple phone call can topple complex systems and why identity verification sits at the heart of modern security. Peter shares a CTO’s view on auditing tech in payments M&A, grading risk, and building Traceless to protect real transactions in real time.

• social engineering as a primary breach vector
• why tech diligence now drives payments and fintech M&A
• lessons from scaling a startup to operational maturity
• auditing architecture, dependencies and maintainability
• open source as foundation and risk surface
• risk grading frameworks buyers can act on
• what cyber risk means for vendors and SaaS reliance
• real‑time identity verification for help desks and workflows
• AI as force multiplier for attackers and defenders

We walk through the practical M&A playbook: inventory the stack, map data flows, assess maintainability, and grade risks so executives can decide what to fix, mitigate, insure, or avoid. Peter explains how a “technical Carfax” reframes negotiations, saving buyers from hidden liabilities and helping sellers prepare cleanly. We also talk vendor risk and why relying on major SaaS platforms can be safer than running your own server—while still demanding least privilege, strong logging, and incident plans that assume someone will eventually pick the wrong link or trust the wrong voice.

Then we widen the lens to Traceless and the identity problem at the core of modern breaches. Real‑time verification for customers, partners, and employees closes the easiest door attackers use: impersonation. From teenager pranksters to nation‑state zero‑days, the threat spectrum is wide, and AI now powers both sides—faster phishing and reconnaissance for attackers, smarter analysis and stress testing for defenders. The takeaway is clear: build verification into business workflows, treat architecture as a living system, and make risk visible with honest grading.

If this conversation helps you think differently about due diligence and operational resilience, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review so more people can find it.

*Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice.  All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.*

Transcript

Peter Segerstrom (00:00):

You still can have someone pick up the phone, call someone else and say that they’re a different person, and immediately have the trust of that other person. So this happened with MGM in 2023, the Jaguar attack that just happened cost Jaguar approximately 2 billion pounds in lost revenue, and they had to get a government bailout. This happened a couple months ago, or maybe a month and a half

Jeremy Stock (00:27):

Ago. What happened here?

Peter Segerstrom (00:29):

The car manufacturer.

Jeremy Stock (00:29):

The car manufacturer. Can you tell our audience what happened?

Peter Segerstrom (00:32):

I didn’t hear about this. So the details are always, the details always get blurred by the company themselves. And in some cases, because there’s the fog of war, they actually don’t understand what happened. But if I remember correctly, in this instance, this is the same group that went after Marks and Spencer and MGM in 2023. A really common tactic that they use is they just call into the help desk.

Jeremy Stock (01:03):

Welcome to the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Christopher Dryden (01:17):

Hey, it’s nice to have you here. The reason that I wanted to have you on is just a tiny bit of what I’m kind of seeing based on our conversation last few minutes. But the thing for me and why I thought it was important and how it overlapped is I met Peter maybe two years ago. We were working on something, I think more than that. It might’ve been longer than that. Totally. And there was a purchase and sale of an ISO that had technology with it. And the funder of this had been using Peter for the kind of background on analyzing, auditing the technology that was coming along in the purchase and sale. Yeah, that’s right. And I had never really thought about it, but then we talk on this podcast all the time about how payments has now become really technology and it’s FinTech. And then I saw in that application how important what you were doing was, and then getting to talk to you, you’re really easy to talk to. Peter’s also A-U-C-S-D alumnus, which I came to find out.

Peter Segerstrom (02:16):

That’s correct. Yeah. I think that was the second time we talked on the phone. I was like, why is it so easy to talk to Chris? We’re just automatically just having

Christopher Dryden (02:25):

Tritons baby.

Peter Segerstrom (02:26):

Yeah, exactly. Just like it’s immediately a vibe.

Christopher Dryden (02:28):

But so we’ve always, one of the things that we do is mergers and acquisitions. And so as we do that, most of the time they’re fairly simple because they’re really geared around rights to receive revenue. But as technology becomes increasingly bigger in our space, that is actually becoming the primary asset that goes along with the revenue. And generally speaking, most of the people in our industry historically have not been technology people. I think it’s being populated now much more by technology people

Peter Segerstrom (03:00):

Rapidly. Right? Yeah.

Christopher Dryden (03:01):

But what I thought was fascinating, and I’ve actually sent you other people, and I know that you’ve done work for them and actually saved them from maybe going down a road that they shouldn’t have gone down particular transactions.

Peter Segerstrom (03:13):

Thank you again for that. Yes,

Christopher Dryden (03:13):

Of course. But I now see this as something that’s really needed in the m and a space. How have you seen your role first getting into these types of transactions that are more around payments, but then in general, is this part of Traceless? And on top of that, is it solely around, obviously, probably not around the payment ecosystem, but where does your need come in and how?

Peter Segerstrom (03:42):

Okay, so that’s a great question. There’s going to be a relatively long answer here.

Christopher Dryden (03:48):

Okay, man.

Peter Segerstrom (03:49):

I guess to completely back up, I got involved from Northern California. I got involved in technology in the early nineties in high school. A bunch of my friends were hackers, and we did a bunch of stuff that you probably shouldn’t do. But I learned about technology very early on. And then when I went to UCSD, I studied, I did sort of a hybrid program. I did music, but then I also, because it was a part of the curriculum, took a bunch of computer science classes, and this is right around the turn of the century, and the writing was on the wall. The internet was basically going to be a part of everything. It’s just kind of a given. And so I have a really funny relationship with technology. I went to art school after that and just kind of bopped around, moved to New York, but at a certain point really recognized that it was going to start to affect everything.

Peter Segerstrom (04:45):

And so completely, I mean, I think the sort of common theme within my career is that I’ve been extremely lucky to be around very smart people and just be adjacent to them. And so I got the opportunity to be the CTO of a company called the Social Edge. I was sort of cold called by this guy named Lorenzo tne, brilliant, brilliant founder. He founded a company called Powerset. He sold that to Microsoft, I think in 2008 or 2009. He has a PhD in AI from U of T, I think, if I remember correctly. And he was just like, Hey, I just have this weird thing. I interviewed for another random job, and one of his friends interviewed me, and I sort of understood that I was a generalist, and I really love technology. I’ve also been a teacher. I’ve been in this kind of hybrid spot where I’ve had to explain technology to people sometimes who don’t understand it or who were in the process of learning to understand it. And that was sort of one of the criteria that Lorenzo wanted. And so we scaled that company from four people to 40. At our peak, we were doing 10 million a year. It was incredible. It was fantastic. And so then after that, so I was a CTO

Christopher Dryden (05:59):

That’s actually watching that scale and watching an organization go from a closet to an actual organization. Yes, exactly. That’s

Peter Segerstrom (06:08):

Huge. Two people literally sitting in a spare bedroom on seventh Avenue in the mid fifties to just editing everything on spreadsheets to, we built custom software in-house for the team. We scaled out the engineering organization to nine. It was so much fun. I learned so much. There was also, the other person that I have to give a shout out to was Steve Damron, who was our COO. He was employee number 2 75 at Sun Microsystem. Oh, really? Yeah. And so was there, he was at Sun from that number to, they scaled to about 20,000 people. So I mean, he has so much experience in that space. It’s amazing. Anyway, long story short, that was the first time I was a CTO, and the really enjoyable experience there for me was just watching people and talking to them and making sure that technology supported them in their job roles and in their lives in terms of what they were trying to do.

Peter Segerstrom (07:12):

And so through that business, I met Gene Rech. Now my, sorry, gene Rich, who’s my, it’s always the way I have to say it that way to Siri, because otherwise she won’t let me text him. But so Jean Rich was the founder of a company called Points. And when the company scaled, at a certain point, he runs a managed service provider. And so at a certain point, I decided that I didn’t want to just reset people’s emails all day. And so we hired them and they came in and did an amazing job. And so that’s how we met. And after that, he started to reach out to me every now and again and say, Hey, I have a client that is interested in doing an acquisition, but they don’t have anyone in house on either side that is able to actually audit the technology.

Christopher Dryden (08:03):

And most of the time, at least what I’ve seen, and that one transaction and others, it’s stuff that’s been designed internally that doesn’t necessarily, it hasn’t been well thought out.

Peter Segerstrom (08:15):

You have no idea, right?

Christopher Dryden (08:16):

Yeah, totally. You build something and then you build upon it some more, and then you have to change something over here that causes five disruptions over here.

Peter Segerstrom (08:25):

Exactly.

Christopher Dryden (08:25):

And there’s not a comprehensive thought to the architecture of it.

Peter Segerstrom (08:29):

Exactly.

Christopher Dryden (08:29):

And so as you’re trying to troubleshoot, it freaks out.

Peter Segerstrom (08:32):

A lot of times companies will have technical employees, and if they have the right initiative, they’ll just start building software for in-house for the company. This was Steve Jobs vision in the early nineties. If you go back and you watch him, he talks about apps really early on. And the whole idea is that software is malleable and flexible. And so it’s natural that companies are going to start to build internal tooling that helps ’em get the job done. And then there’s also then naturally, as things as spaces emerge where there’s software often purchased, you’re going to need people to help you integrate that kind of stuff. So in that instance, and how I realized that my background would benefit that is just essentially just to go into a situation. I’m constantly auditing software for my own company. I’m constantly looking at software vendors, looking at really simple libraries and saying, okay, is this going to break in two years?

Peter Segerstrom (09:35):

Is this well maintained? Is it secure? Is the output or the format of this, whatever the data is or whatever it’s actually doing, is that going to be immediately usable by the people that are using it? Is it going to work? So the few projects that we’ve done together and all the projects that I did leading up to it, that was the question that I had to answer. And I completely backed into this because what you just said about someone built something from the inside and you have no idea how it works. That scales all the way up to the big, big, big leagues. There are software acquisitions that have happened in the last 10 years where, I mean, I won’t name any names, but there have been instances where an absolute top of the top software company purchased another unicorn, maybe even deck of corn, and said, sure, okay, well, part of what we’re going to do is we’re going to migrate your entire infrastructure from one cloud to another, and then just

Peter Segerstrom (10:44):

Failed

Peter Segerstrom (10:45):

And just said, okay, we actually can’t do that because it’s so difficult to have X-ray vision and look into what’s actually going on.

Christopher Dryden (10:53):

Well, I was going to say, how can you prospectively stress test stuff like that? Because to me, you can see it. You can see where it’s been built, but then projecting as to what it’s going to do or what you may need to do to it to get it to a new generation, is that something that you’re focused on as

Peter Segerstrom (11:10):

Well? Well, I mean, so interesting. This is something that AI is making easier. We can get into that if you want, but that’s a whole area where it is helping things. But I think it’s very, very hard for even very, very good people to anticipate that this is the reason why this type of work, this type of consulting work is often given to the big four. This is capital C consulting stuff. So it’s like if you have two companies that are going to really take this seriously in terms of doing a merger at a software level, you’re going to want A, B, C, G or a McKinsey to come in and have someone who’s a team of technical people to say, okay, cool. We’re going to help you get through this. You’re going to pay us an ungodly amount of money. No, it’s true. It’s true. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to help you literally take the plugs and say, okay, here’s the outlet, boom, put ’em together, 1, 2, 3, and shepherd you through the process over the course of two or three years.

Christopher Dryden (12:10):

And that’s the interesting part. Operationally, I find that to be fairly easy. I mean, cultures don’t always mix and match.

Peter Segerstrom (12:18):

That’s an X factor,

Christopher Dryden (12:19):

Right? But you can kind of see, and then you can see how things are architected. But then now with the advent of technology, and I would say when you look at people who use technology versus no technology, it’s kind of like cars in today’s day, maybe not back in historically, because cars were much more, they were simple and able to be worked on by a common person today with technology, can’t work on your car. Exactly. But I consider all technology kind like this to a certain degree. I can’t open up my computer and I can look at it and kind of recognize what’s in there, but I have no idea. Right?

Peter Segerstrom (12:57):

Totally. Totally. The one thing that is, I would say, one of the most unsung heroes, even though a lot of people are obviously huge proponents of how this has gotten easier, is the fact that so much of the internet and so much of what people use day-to-day is now open source or the entire Internet’s built on open source. Every single company that has made a splash in the last 10 years as a startup, as a unicorn, fundamentally is wildly dependent open source. And that is one thing that where you can start to trust more and more. When a small company says, okay, well, we’re going to build X, Y, Z, they’re going to do so probably out of what’s close at hand. Those are going to be relatively accessible, vetted libraries typically. And as that pattern gets more common, as that sort of muscle gets built across culture across industry, it does get easier to say, okay, this is how I can do my job. I can airdrop into an organization with an engineering team of 20 people, and I can say, just give me the checklist of what your stack is. They’ll say, okay, we’re on AWS, we use Dynamo, we use Lambda, we use three or four other things. It’s usually just alphabet soup. But out of that, you’ll be able to say, okay, cool. I can understand how each of those things sort of ties together. All the things I just mentioned are not open source, but they’re all based on open source.

Christopher Dryden (14:35):

So that’s the thing. It’s foundational. I only see it from the perspective of doing disclosure schedules. And so when we get to the reps and warranties and we get into technology, this is where I’ve kind of seen this broken out, not in a format that I necessarily understand, but in a way where I see that the architecture of what’s been built a lot of times is just bootstrapped to something. That was a starting point

Peter Segerstrom (14:58):

For sure. And I think I have another good friend who was sort of a friend of that company who is a incredible CTO. He sold his company relatively recently for I think something like 125, something like that. And he, he was sort of my mentor while I was there, and would always say, he’d say, no matter what anyone says, it’s all just like gum and dental floss and duct tape duct. Everything is justing wire. No matter what anyone says, you’re going to get people coming at you being like, this is all perfect. We do this. And it makes me feel better because I do think that there’s a lot, obviously, there’s a range there. But yeah, I mean, I think to your point about how you describe risk to the buyer, that is one of the harder things about doing this type of reporting and sort of investigatory work is really d It’s like,

Christopher Dryden (15:59):

Well, it’s imperfect, right? I mean, it’s inherently imperfect.

Peter Segerstrom (16:02):

Yes.

Christopher Dryden (16:03):

What you’re actually, there’s no predictability. Well, there’s less predictability for what you’re analyzing. So it’s kind of hard from that perspective. But I think what’s helpful about what you do is if you’re going to buy the warts, it’s kind of like your Carfax, I’m going to go back to a car analogy, but you’re somewhat like Carfax because you’re going in and you’re looking at it and you’re like, yeah, this could be a potential problem. And the cool part was is when you did it, you had a grading scale of here’s how good I feel about this. This could be a problem. I thought that was cool to try to put it into optics that people could kind of digest and analyze from that perspective where you’re doing the detailed work and they’re taking it in, but it’s in a usable format.

Peter Segerstrom (16:52):

You have to give people something that’s in a consumable format that comes from cybersecurity, that comes from, there’s a lot of different mechanisms within cybersecurity in terms of rating vulnerabilities and trying to really quickly just give someone a top line understanding of what the risk is and the context of the risk. So yeah, I think that that stuff comes naturally just because that’s a part of what I have to do.

Christopher Dryden (17:21):

Well, and it’s interesting because this was what I thought our podcast was really going to be about, because this has been my experience with you.

Christopher Dryden (17:30):

But then as we sat down earlier, and I see that it’s being a subset of traceless, but tell us about the genesis of Traceless and then what Traceless does, because I think what Traceless does is a larger general context of what you were doing specifically when we were working on transactions.

Peter Segerstrom (17:49):

Exactly. Yeah. I do not have a formal cybersecurity background, but I’ve been dealing with the internet for a long time, and the internet is made out of Swiss cheese. That’s one of my maxims that I always say. I think a lot of people say that. And so throughout my time just building websites, trying to hack MySpace, when that was a thing,

Christopher Dryden (18:15):

Geez, what was the guy’s name that he was your friend? He was Tom. Tom. He was your first friend. I’m like, who’s Tom? That’s right, exactly. But where’s the chicks?

Peter Segerstrom (18:24):

Yeah. So I mean, basically throughout my entire time dealing with technology, it’s just like that has been a continuous kind of background awareness. And so it kind of culminated at a certain point I realized, okay, once for my next startup, I think I’m probably going to do a cybersecurity startup, because that is, you have different types of risk. And in terms of these acquisitions, what I’m trying to do with the buyer and also the seller, just in terms of you do a little bit of therapy, you’re going and you’re talking to someone, they’re trying to get their company sold, and you’re like, okay, maybe you don’t know all of the potential problems that are happening with your company. And so you want to think about, you try to contextualize the different liabilities. One of the biggest liabilities at this point is just cyber risk. And so that’s the genesis of Traceless came out of that.

Christopher Dryden (19:18):

So that’s a term that I think it would be beneficial for all of our listeners to actually unpack. I mean, to me, you’re saying cyber risk or cybersecurity, break that down. I mean, break down cyber risk, because I don’t think a lot of people, it’s just a term. Of course, of course.

Peter Segerstrom (19:36):

I mean, and that’s the problem is that it’s vulnerabilities on the internet and cybersecurity is now, it’s moved so quickly, it’s expanded so quickly. But this is also because the internet adopts, the internet has expanded really quickly. So cyber risk is essentially the risk that if you’re using a tool, let’s just say specifically within the context of an acquisition, cyber risk is essentially you are using something that is wildly out of date, has noted vulnerabilities. You’re using a piece of software that essentially has a back door, let’s just say. Right? And so we always talk about securing the house. It’s a really simple metaphor. And so most people that run businesses really don’t want to think about cyber risk. They don’t want to think about technical risk in general, because most of them don’t really want to think about technology. They just want to run their business, which is a completely normal and natural desire. It’s challenging because technology has become progressively, it’s

Christopher Dryden (20:41):

Central,

Peter Segerstrom (20:41):

More and more central, more and more complex.

Peter Segerstrom (20:45):

And

Christopher Dryden (20:46):

Integrated. Integrated look expected for me for sure, because I’ve got people working on three or four systems from accounting to ops to, and I want those to talk to one another. Jeremy works on his own marketing system, but HubSpot, and we just found out that HubSpot is integrable with our CRM Clio. Yeah, our actual CRM that we use for law firm operations. Totally. Look, I’m not looking to replace people, but I’m looking to automate as much as possible. Yeah, exactly. Because if you do the setup right, the automation will automatically just create product that is, to me, if it’s done correctly, the end result will be correct, and I can rely on it completely. And I tangent, and you just said something that really I thought about because most of what we use today is web based, so I could see how the internet would be more integral in how security comes through with that. But then a lot of the other parts of it are how much am I supposed to rely on the software provider that I’m accessing through the internet beyond user permissions to know that I’m protected? I mean, this is something that I don’t even know necessarily on a contract basis, but

Christopher Dryden (22:08):

How much reliance can I put? And I had somebody from West say this to me once. We used to have, because all of the data that we operate in, it’s PI, it’s PCI. If I wanted to commit identity theft, I could have a million times overly, I have so much information. When we started the firm, we had a physical server and that physical server, I had a whole bunch of lines of protection. I knew where it was. And then you lock on the door, right? And then we talked to West and there was some sort of web-based application that they were trying to sell us, and I was like, well, what about data integrity and security? And the guy kind of laughed at me and he’s like, look, this is what we do. He’s like, I am sure that what I’m doing, you’ll be more secure with me than you will be on your own. And I said, you know what? That’s a really valid point. I appreciate what you just said, but at the same time, how much reliance as a user of a business software can I have when we’re talking about cybersecurity?

Peter Segerstrom (23:15):

I mean, that is a great question and that is virtually impossible to answer question because of the composition of what your company is and what you do can change from industry to industry. The vendors that you’re dependent on can

Christopher Dryden (23:34):

Change Dropbox. Everybody rolls with Dropbox.

Peter Segerstrom (23:37):

Yes.

Christopher Dryden (23:37):

Okay. So I’ve got user permissions for people in Dropbox. I know that there’s a lot of ways for people to infiltrate. It could be through my wireless router. It could be through all sorts of ways that somebody could get into us. But Dropbox so widely used. If I put something in it and I don’t screw up,

Peter Segerstrom (23:58):

What are the chances that they screw up?

Jeremy Stock (24:00):

Yeah,

Peter Segerstrom (24:00):

Great question. They’re not necessarily likely, but is where, I mean, I guess this is another thing we could talk about that is so complicated about cybersecurity. Cyber risk is so part of what we do at traceless, I’ll give you the elevator pitch in a minute, but basically part of what we do at Traceless is on demand identity verification. So traceless is essentially real time protection of data and identity.

Christopher Dryden (24:26):

So two-factor authentication, like that type of thing?

Peter Segerstrom (24:29):

Exactly. But specifically for data and specifically in specific context where you are doing transactions with either your customer or a business partner employee, that kind of thing. What’s crazy about the way the internet works and sort of the cognitive dissonance that we have to deal with is that to your point about Dropbox, on one hand, you still can have someone pick up the phone, call someone else and say that they are a different person, and immediately have the trust of that other person. So this happened with MGM in 2023, the Jaguar attack that just happened cost Jaguar approximately 2 billion pounds in lost revenue. They had to get a government bailout. This just happened. This happened a couple months ago, or maybe a month and a half ago.

Jeremy Stock (25:18):

What happened Peter? The car manufacturer.

Peter Segerstrom (25:19):

The car manufacturer.

Jeremy Stock (25:20):

Can you tell our audience what happened?

Peter Segerstrom (25:22):

I didn’t hear about this. So the details always get blurred by the company themselves. And in some cases, because there’s the fog of war, they actually don’t understand what happened. But if I remember correctly, in this instance, this is the same group that went after Marks and Spencer and MGM in 2023. A really common tactic that they use is they just call into the help desk. They call in and they say, or they call into the internal IT desk and they say, I work for you. I need to reset my password, or I need to do whatever. So you have that on one side, you have that action, which is so simple on one side. And then on the other side you have a nation state. You have someone who is worked on a Microsoft Zero day for five years. What that means is they know a vulnerability that exists like baseline within Microsoft’s cloud infrastructure that nobody else knows about. Those things are actual pure gold in terms of the hacker community because it means that you can go do something that no one is expecting you to do and just get in. So it’s so crazy. So we have this continuum where you are trying to defend against a 17-year-old who’s just like being a clown. Prank calling

Christopher Dryden (26:48):

Has no perspective necessarily on the world.

Peter Segerstrom (26:51):

Yeah, exactly.

Christopher Dryden (26:52):

What his actions could produce.

Peter Segerstrom (26:54):

You could have someone prank call you and bring down your business all the way to, you could have a cloud provider like Microsoft, like Google and AWS. They all have had zero days. They’ve all have had instances where they were sitting on a, they have a castle, it’s got a thousand doors, and one of them is just unlocked and they don’t know it. And you have someone who has the time and the sophistication to navigate that process to go get something that they want. Right.

Christopher Dryden (27:31):

Well, here’s a random question. Does AI help them in that process?

Peter Segerstrom (27:38):

No. This is a really, really common point of discussion these days, and I think, I mean, it is very interesting. It is, I guess you could call it a war attrition, but it helps both sides.

Christopher Dryden (27:54):

If I’m a hacker out there and because I think that looking at that perspective is relevant to the conversation that we’re having, are they able to use the tools that are coming into the marketplace? 100%. And they probably have more sophisticated tools than we’re going to have as consumers.

Peter Segerstrom (28:09):

One refrain that I think is going to be useful probably for the next few years is that AI is as good as you are.

Christopher Dryden (28:15):

I agree. It’s like software, garbage and garbage out. Exactly. I agree. I agree. If you teach AI and you have particular outcomes that you’re looking for and you work it and train it, yeah, a hundred percent. I think it’s an unbelievable tool.

Peter Segerstrom (28:29):

Yeah. So if you have someone that has, if you think about AI, is essentially, it’s memorized the internet. And so if you have someone who is an organic chemist that has a PhD in Bioorganic chemistry or whatever, they can sit down with chat GBT and have some really interesting conversations. They can probably use it to push their research forward. They can probably have it help them think about some areas that they didn’t necessarily think about before.

Jeremy Stock (28:56):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. Visit us online today at global legal law firm.com. Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.