PEP Episode 009 — POS & ADA Compliance with Steve Taylor

Podcast Description:

In this episode, we have Chris Dryden, Founding and Managing Partner of Global Legal Law Firm, with guest star Steve Taylor of Taylor Brands, POS. Steve Taylor joins us today to educate the public about the American Disabilities Act and assistive POS mounting. When it comes to walking into the store, getting what we want, and buying by credit card, we don’t think twice about it. But when someone who is disabled or has a disorder as simple as placing the card into the insert; can cause more of a problem than you can imagine. Steve explains why it’s important to be knowledgeable and what merchants can do to help.



Jeremy Stock (00:00):

Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm ISOs, FinTech, pay fax agents, merchants, processors, acquiring banks and card brands. If these terms mean something to you, this podcast is for you. If these terms aren’t so familiar, this podcast is even more for you. We hope you enjoy this episode of pep, the Payments Experts podcast. Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. Today we are very fortunate to have in studio with us the founding and managing partner of Global Legal Law firm, Christopher Dryden, as well as Steve Taylor of Taylor Brands, p o s. Steve, it’s a wonderful to have you with us today. We’ve got a lot of important things to talk about. And would you mind giving us a quick introduction about yourself?

Steve Taylor (01:03):

Yeah. For the purpose of this, uh, American Disabilities Act and the technology of the system, technology specifically in the mounting for stores, uh, attended, self checkout unattended, along with the new laws coming into place. Um, I’m not gonna go through my whole background that’s on the website if you want to go look at it, but, uh,

Chris Dryden (01:27):

Give us the website.

Steve Taylor (01:27):

For the purpose of, uh, Perfect. Now you can think of point of self, it’s point of service combined, you know, sort of, but, uh, you know, with what we do, it’s more of a, a mounting service than it is. Uh, just go by the stand, you know, there’s a lot more to it. And

Chris Dryden (01:48):

Hey, Steve, real quick, let’s back up cuz I, I can’t remember how we, you found us or I, I, because I think you called and I can’t remember exactly, but this is a really interesting subject matter for me because I think it’s highly relevant to a lot of the people that we represent. Um, yeah, I, I and I, and, and I think at least when I examine something, it’s really good to understand the history associated with it and kind of, you know, the background, I, I’m familiar with the ADA just being a lawyer and being in California an extremely litigious state and people doing drive-bys of trying to find violations of the ada. There were attorney firms here in San Diego that were, uh, trying to, you know, find violations because there’s attorney’s fees attached to the violations. And so if you write a demand letter in, yada, yada, yada, then potentially, uh, you are entitled to attorney’s fees.

Chris Dryden (02:47):

And then there were remedial measures that needed to take place under the ada. That’s usually for accessibility. That was when I first became a lawyer. I saw stuff like that. Yeah, I’ve been in payments for a really long time. The fact that the ADA would now intersect with payments and that there would be not only ADA provisions, but also California specific provisions. When you contacted me, I found that to be a highly interesting A because it impacts almost every single merchant that has a physical storefront. And b, it’s a value add sale to almost get it almost, I, I don’t know if I’d call it a loss leader, but to get the foot in the door to talk to a merchant to get them talking about payment processing and, and agent’s knowledge associated with it. I just thought, I found it very, very interesting and very relevant.

Chris Dryden (03:38):

So I, I think if you could give some background associated with kind of just, you know, cuz I was surprised to learn that this had been on the books for such a long time, but I’ve never been exposed to it. And I think from that perspective, it’s really important that people understand that this is out there. And so I, I just, you know, give us a background associated with the, the legislation. Cuz I think that it’s one of those things that’s really gonna become far more relevant because it’s going to get out in, into the light. And I think it one that’s good for what you sell, but it’s also good for, uh, building relationships with merchants, for salespeople that are, that are offering merchant services.

Steve Taylor (04:24):

Yeah. So in 2013, uh, the US Access Board did put out an AM P r m Advance Notice proposed rulemaking for PAs. They weren’t quite ready. They put it on the shelf in 14. I don’t know all the reasons why they re attempted in 2017 to make checkouts more accessible. Uh, Trump got in and said, for every new regulation, you gotta remove two. So it was stumped for four years. They had to drop it. And when the, a new new administration came in, they hit it again and said, gosh, we have a big self checkout shift. You know, and we have to make sure people in wheelchairs, little people, or just with other problems could be as much as carpal tunnel for crying out loud that needed to be addressed. So that’s exactly what’s happening. And like I said, it’s gonna affect everything. There’s a lot of cash cashiers, uh, that will ask for a person’s debit card if that’s what they’re running. They’ll ask for their PIN because they can’t access the point of sale device. Whose fault is that? I’m gonna say it’s the merchant services industry and the PO equipment distributors. Um, the merchant’s not gonna know. They’re expecting their payments professional to educate them. How can I properly be set up? You know, and I always bring up the point, why would you have accessible parking spot accessible entry and exit accessible restroom, accessible aisle, accessible table and inaccessible mounting? Make that make sense to me? It’s a

Jeremy Stock (06:12):

Great point, Steve. So,

Steve Taylor (06:14):

Yeah. Yeah. So if I go into my local Jack in the Box, I’m gonna call that a 50 50 store. They have accessible parking. They have two spots, they just rep paved. So you gotta think about even the paving in a parking lot for people with walkers, right? You have a big old bumpy parking lot. It’s gonna give that person a really hard time. But if you park on the left side and you can’t back in, you’re pulling up next against a curb. And Bushs, what’s the point of that accessible parking if you’re the person in the wheelchair driving? It doesn’t make sense, right? But, uh, then they have the bigger one where it’s van accessible. You go on into the store, they got nice low counters, but their point of sale devices are tucked back and they’re fixed, fixed mounted. And I’ll go into fixed mounting and all that with this new M P R M coming up. But if you’re in a wheelchair and you go to reach the straws or try and get a soda and you have limited recent strengths, you’re outta luck.

Jeremy Stock (07:18):

So Steve, what’s the disconnect then? Because you make a great point, right? The, the, these businesses, these merchants, they are required, even contractors, right? They’re required to follow certain regulations to make these things happen, such as ramps, et cetera. Why is this not transferred over into the payment space?

Steve Taylor (07:36):

Um, you know, I was talking with somebody about this the other day. They said, because it wasn’t originally involved in the ADA from the onset, right?

Chris Dryden (07:46):

So I think it’s a lack of knowledge too. I mean, I feel like I’m fairly knowledgeable in a lot of the areas of the law. And this was a total surprise to me that this was, uh, the ADA was applied to this particular, uh, tra like the, this operation, right? I mean, it, it raises a question to me as well with the changing of just not point of service. I mean, I was in the airport the other day and it looks like mc, McDonald’s has gone to kiosks, you know? Yeah. And that, that seems to be something too. So there’s a lot of different, uh, ordering and payment apparatus. But I, I don’t think people know. That’s why I was very interested to have you on. Yeah. Because I thought that this was very educational more than anything else, to make sure that people understood that this was out there. Cuz enforcement’s gonna happen at some point.

Steve Taylor (08:33):

Yeah. Yeah. So one of the first things we can look at, it’s, it’s very, uh, just like the payments industry, very segmented. So the reasons behind it are many. If you look at Jeremy, I sent you an email about the, uh, transaction acceptance guide, right? Mm-hmm. Device guide. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you accept Visa card, they require you to have accessibility for your point of cell device in whatever part of the world you are. It’s ta dg uh, version three two came out in January, 2020. And it’s section 2.6. So you can look that up. It’s right there in your face. Okay. Accept Visa. Now I gotta, I promise to abide by accessibility laws. Okay. Payments professional. Educate me.

Chris Dryden (09:25):

You know, it’s interesting too is they’re certified payment professional classes through the E T A, I don’t even know if they’re aware of this,

Steve Taylor (09:31):

You know? No, they, they are, they, they actually are. I take that back. Um,

Chris Dryden (09:38):

Do you know if it’s part of the curriculum, Steve?

Steve Taylor (09:41):

Not the curriculum. Um, I joined in 2017, so I could do the show, the e t a show at Mandalay Bay. It was about five months before the shootings happened there. Remember that? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That, that, that was a year. And we talked about it. In fact, uh, we had a, a multi-person phone call on this and they just, in my opinion, did not wanna listen. They didn’t wanna hear it. They separate from the ADA for some reason. But yet it’s a really integral part of it. You know? And I know if I own a store, well, again, I’ll go back. I’m gonna have the accessible parking entry and exit a counter. I’m gonna give my customer a way to be able to privately interact with that device. You know? But the problem is also the mounting companies out there, they think in terms of it’s gotta stay stuck. P c I says it has to be locked down. Okay. If that’s true, why do we have handhelds?

Chris Dryden (10:53):

No, that’s a good point. Yeah.

Steve Taylor (10:55):


Chris Dryden (10:55):

Yeah, that’s a good point.

Steve Taylor (10:56):

Yeah. And in the p c I point of interaction section under PIN transaction security, it specifically talks about handhelds at ATMs. It’s in black and white.

Chris Dryden (11:09):

Yeah. I mean that was a big area that, that I, my first understanding of how the a d A intersected with payments was the a TM machines. Cuz that was a, a source of a lot of litigation back in like, I wanna say 2010, 2011, whenever. Yeah. You know, you saw kind of a little bit of a thrust. I’m also interested in your opinion cuz you know, self-checkouts been something that’s sort of, you know, risen steadily over the last few years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but then recently based on, you know, the loss of related to shoplifting and I don’t know how much revenue goes out the door, you know, by forcing people into the self-check, self-checkout line and whether the loss there is offset by the savings and employees or whatever, whatever it is that they were trying to accomplish with self checkout. Or it, I would, I I didn’t even think about that until you had said that here.

Chris Dryden (12:01):

Cause I’m always thinking about going through the checkout line. I, you know, I mean, I, I generally go through the checkout line just cuz I do, I don’t know why. If it’s, if it’s habit. And I hate the idea that I’m being forced to go and commit labor to buy stuff from you <laugh>. Um, so, you know, I, on principle a lot of times I’ll just sit and Yeah. Kind of go through the checkout line. But what’s, what’s your thought process on automated checkout and how that’s gonna look with, uh, with, with the, the ADA compliance as well?

Steve Taylor (12:31):

Yeah, so this one’s funny to me because the Walmart, for instance, the, the self checkouts there, they have a bar wand, right? A bar coder wand. And you can get it in your hand. You can scan all your product. You know, you’re sitting in your little scooter or on your wheelchair and you hang it back up. But you can’t reach the point of sale device. Make that make sense. Where is the logic? Why did NCR do this?

Chris Dryden (13:05):

Uh, you know, that’s the thing. I don’t think that this has really been in the forefront of anybody’s mind because I think if they saw the potential liability associated with it, I don’t think they would ignore it.

Steve Taylor (13:17):

Yeah. You know, had I chosen to become a serial filer, I’d be worth millions upon millions just in settlements alone. And I would challenge any, any, no offense guys, any attorney to fight me in court on it. I’ll win every single time. Well,

Chris Dryden (13:39):

It’s black and white, right? I mean the, the law’s, I don’t think that there’s a lot of wiggle room and, and a statutory framework like the ada.

Steve Taylor (13:46):

Yeah. There isn’t. And you know, uh, a lot of people rely on this old myth, uh, called reach and range. Okay. It just needs to be within reach and range, you know, and there’s dimensions for that in the ada. However, it’s, that’s not the key. It’s the assistive technology within the region. Range is what matters. And there are things in play, uh, for assistive technology. In the case of, uh, the mounting that I make, my patented technology, it has the operable part in ADA section, uh, 3.9. And there’s uh, what, 3 9 4. Anyway, um, I’ve got so many numbers in my head. I’ve been studying new stuff. I’ll talk about it actually. Um, but in that is the operation. So requiring no pinching, no twisting of the wrist, no grasping, uh, the release has to be under a certain amount of pound strength and to snap it back in, you know, you have to think about, um, oh, what’s the term? Distal radius bowler tilt. And you’re like, what’s distal radial bowler tilt?

Chris Dryden (15:02):

Right. I I was actually gonna say, do you happen to have a PO os ADA compliance Guide for Dummies <laugh>?

Steve Taylor (15:08):

I know. I thought about writing a book on it.

Chris Dryden (15:10):

<laugh>. Yeah, totally. Cause you know, I Well that’s the thing about your website, right? I mean, you’ve got educational materials that are up on it and I’m sure that there’s some of this is, you know, watered down for people to just take it on, you know, naturally. Yes. Versus, cuz trust me, I I, when I first started, I used to do personal injury and I used to read doctors and chiropractor notes and I had to go and actually look up the stuff that I was reading. Cause I really didn’t understand any of it. So.

Steve Taylor (15:37):

Yeah. Well, you know, with the distal radial, uh, you know, you gotta think about, uh, alignment of the wrist risk usage. Again, I, I used the word, what was that earlier that people get with their wrist, tunnel carp, carpal

Jeremy Stock (15:53):

Tunnel. My mother had it

Steve Taylor (15:55):

Carpal tunnel, you know, and you gotta think about did they have broken bones? Do they have, or do they have two fingers? Can they stretch? You know, so little things like that matter. If you’re gonna go 360, you go 360, you don’t go 3 59 in your thought process.

Jeremy Stock (16:11):

Let me ask you this, I’ll play devil’s advocate for a little bit here. You guys are familiar with the Amazon stores have recently come out where you literally just walk in, you have an account set up, you put what you want in a basket and you walk out the door and the technology as such that it charges your account. Yeah. What do you say to people who say, Hey, look, technology’s gonna take care of this, you know, kind of no big deal, even now you can just kind of tap your card against the p os. What’s your response to people that say those sorts of things?

Steve Taylor (16:41):

Oh, okay. So that works for some people and some people are privacy oriented and say no way. So you have to have choices. And I’ll give you a good example. Uh, Saturday I went to fill up my car at the Chevron and I used their phone app. Okay. I didn’t have to mess with the card reader there. It just synced up with the thing, you know? And, uh, my card info was on. I think it’s fantastic. It’s awesome. But it’s not for everybody, is it? Or if you’re in an area with no cell signal, it’s not gonna work out too well.

Chris Dryden (17:19):

Yeah. I, I, I mean I honestly, I’m one of those people, it’s funny to me that I’m in such a technology driven space and at the same time, like people try to communicate with me through text and email in the same day. And I’m like, look, I’m, I’m not on my phone. Like I put it away. Yeah. It’s a distraction. Like when I’m working, I’m working. And so I don’t get involved in a lot of the gadgetry with phones. I really don’t care. Like, when I’m a away from working, I throw the thing away. It doesn’t like, I, that’s just me. And I agree with you. There is gonna be a section of the population that’s never really gonna adopt. Now as that section of the population grows old and dies <laugh>, like Right. Right. I I I do believe that, you know, the ADA compliance, you know, technology will probably create solutions that don’t require as much.

Chris Dryden (18:15):

And even then I still think that there’s gonna be people that just aren’t really Yeah. In that space. And so there’s always going to be some consumer that is gonna want to do it old school unless it’s mandated that they do it new school. And I don’t know if merchants will become that sophisticated. Cuz I don’t think, and I don’t say this, uh, disparagingly at all. I just don’t think that there are a lot of sophisticated business owners. I mean, I do believe that technology is pushing business education and tools. You know, I think POS devices themselves, not terminals, but actual POS systems have helped business owners educate themselves on software for software solutions for business. And I do believe that there’s been a, like a continuing crescendo in that direction. But will there always be adoption? I mean, going to any convenience store and most people like, it’s just the terminal there. Yeah. And they’re not really willing to invest in all that. And they don’t care The same terminal that was there 10 years ago, probably pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Probably they, and, and they work on such tight margins. They’re not necessarily interested in having anything sophisticated in there cuz their business may not require it except for maybe inventory management and Yeah.

Steve Taylor (19:29):

Yeah. Well, you know, I don’t think going out getting a regular Verifone packs in genco or whatever is that much money. Right. Few hundred bucks and get your mounting, you get a 50% tax credit if you’re a mill five under, I think it’s two and a half million now. Uh, the fines also went up with the 80 D a to 75,000 starting point. You know, that’ll take a business right out of business most, you know, small business. But you know what I, there, I think I talked about this taco joint once I go to and they have a clover set up and no tactile pin, and I asked ’em, I go, how would a blind person check out here if they were debit only? And their answer was, we don’t get blind people

Chris Dryden (20:18):

That Yeah. I I actually think that that too is an interesting, using Jeremy’s analogy for Amazon and like there’s a certain section of people that qualify as a protected class under the ADA that none of this technology will ever apply. Right. I mean, like, there’s some of that stuff that just, they’re, how does a blind person take advantage of the technology unless somebody’s adopting it for them. Like, and I, I, you know, I don’t know what segment of the population that’s out there that’s blind and buying stuff and I, I don’t know the numbers or anything on that, but I also think that that merchant at the taco shop was ex is extremely foolish to not think that that potentially would Yeah. Happen to them. Yeah. Or that some slimeball attorney <laugh> would just send the blind person in to create a violation. Right. <laugh>.

Steve Taylor (21:13):

Yeah. Do you need

Jeremy Stock  (21:14):

The address of that taco shop? Chris <laugh>?

Steve Taylor (21:16):

I know, you know, there was a, there was a, a woman in San Diego back in, I wanna say around 2017, literally in San Diego, mom and pop Mexican restaurant and a scumbag lawyer as you call him, uh, had a guy in a wheelchair go in and measure the toilet roll paper holder. It was an inch and a half too high that took her out of business.

Chris Dryden (21:43):

Yeah, totally. And that stuff exists. That’s why I’m saying like ADA attorneys and, and you know, I’m a business lawyer and I want to do things that promote business. And that’s part of the impetus to have you here is because I think that this is actually a very simple fix Yes. Where it’s very cost effective and very simple. And the solution expense versus the actual liability expense, if you had that particular instance happen, they’re so far out of whack with one another. That’s why I thought this is really important. This is something that every merchant could use and it’s very cost effective. And if I was a salesperson walking in and I was talking to you about things that could be potentially, um, you know, harmful to your business that you’re not even aware of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it just builds rapport. Right. I mean, it allows you to walk in and talk to somebody and start a conversation and give them information and just go and even say, Hey, by the way, like, if you’re not interested in merchant services, that’s fine. I think that this would be really beneficial for you and it’s really cost effective. Let me know if you’re interested. And it’s a way to at least get your foot in the door with somebody and, you know, be able to start something where you don’t oversell and you’re trying to build a relationship. Because later on they may remember that and

Jeremy Stock (23:04):

It can actually help people.

Steve Taylor (23:04):

Yeah, for sure. Well, one of the problems there, um, you talk to store employees, uh, they’re more than willing. They, they know because they deal with the customers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but you get up in the C-suite, they’re baba.

Chris Dryden (23:21):

Yeah. But I actually think that this is more for the mom and pop shop. Like I think that they’re, the more, they’re the ones like honestly, anybody who’s got a C-suite, if they can’t look at this and, and have a, have some sort of forethought about it. Good. Sorry on you. Yeah. But the mom and pops, they’re never really gonna know about this stuff. And then when it does come and hit ’em, it’s gonna have a far more drastic impact on them. Yeah. I, that’s who I really think that this is for. That’s why I thought in relation to this, we, you know, we, we play in the pool of the ISO agent. You know, we don’t represent processors, we don’t represent banks. We don’t represent, you know, large companies or lar you know, mega merchants. The people that we represent deal with mom and pop. And that makes up a significant amount of the market and Oh,

Steve Taylor (24:08):

Huge amount.

Chris Dryden (24:09):

Yeah. And so I, I look at this as educational almost. It’s not like a huge money maker as more as it is a rapport builder. But, you know, it’s, its something that it, for me it’s relationship building. Like that’s how we built this firm, right. We’re relationship people and Yeah. And you know, I looked at what you were saying and I was willing to donate time and donate the opportunity to put you on this because I think this is directly relevant to a lot of the people that we service. And I think that what you’re offering is extremely cost effective and needed.

Steve Taylor (24:44):

Yeah. So that, and like I say, when we’re talking about the updates in law, uh, the N P R M for EV charging stations comes out in about three weeks. Okay. And Nevy is requiring full accessibility to the card reader. So those fixed card readers, you know, they’re gonna have to have tactile pen, um, Elon Musk, Tesla, they’re kind of against this <laugh>. How do

Chris Dryden (25:17):

You think?

Steve Taylor (25:18):

Yeah, I have, I know they are. I’ve read their comments and, uh, <laugh>, but nobody else really chimed in on that. And I was like, that’s really interesting. Um, are they

Chris Dryden (25:30):

Gonna try? Yeah. He’s he’s the guy behind all the stations, right? I mean he’s like, he’s had the foresight probably behind the scenes a little bit where he knows what’s going to be needed as Tesla becomes such a, a larger portion of the car market

Steve Taylor (25:44):


Chris Dryden (25:44):

To, to do this. And so, you know, he is got that lithium battery plant out in New Mexico. The, the stations like Hess behind all of it. And so I i I, it doesn’t surprise me that he’s the one that’s coming out saying something about it.

Steve Taylor (25:58):

Yeah. Well he is not gonna be able to fight it. It’s gonna be a thing. And he, you know, Tesla can’t be excluded to it. Plus they’re opening up their chargers now to Ford, GM and whoever else. I just read the news on that yesterday. So if that’s the case, you know, you have to make it. And you know, one of the analogies I use is, let’s say you’re a blind person. I’m gonna bring up the blind again. Or maybe you’re quadrat collegiate, you’re gonna hire your driver. Okay. Let’s say you own the electric vehicle and you hire a driver to drive you around and you’re responsible for payment. You don’t use the app. Okay. Um, you don’t want to use a tapper, uh, you’re gonna use your debit card. You have to again, think full circle. And these things are gonna be required at the ev charging stations. It is just the way it’s gonna be. And, um,

Chris Dryden (27:01):

So I, I know we’re talking about the ada, the last time we spoke about this, you were talking about California specific laws associated with this as

Steve Taylor (27:08):

Well. Oh, 1382. Yeah. Do you,

Chris Dryden (27:11):

So do you see, and and I know you follow this very closely, do you see some sort of, uh, it’s interesting. California’s generally like the flag bearer of a lot of laws that come into place. Like in, in California we have, uh, laws associated with being a, like a funder of, of any of any commercial funding, whether it be through a lease or a cash advance or a loan. And in order to fund money here, you have to have a license. And, and so there’s laws and then they came out with these disclosure laws associated with, if you are doing that type of transaction, then you have to give full disclosure and here’s like the form and what you have to disclose. And then New York’s now come out with a law, Utah, Virginia. And it seems like California’s just sort of the trailblazer with a lot of these things. I know, one, I wanted you to talk about the California law. I apologize for cutting you off, but do you see that states will also come along and, and I’ve never done the research on this, but I would imagine California does it cuz we have a larger population of disabled people just cause we have a larger population. But do you see other states maybe doing the same thing?

Steve Taylor (28:23):

Yeah, I think so. I, I think the 13 0 8 2 is gonna be incorporated into the update with the access board. You know, cuz it calls for the easy removal of the POS device from its unit, that being the mounting. Okay. And, uh, the only thing California did awkward was they excluded ATMs and fuel. And I believe in this upcoming one, those are going to be addressed where they’re gonna have to have handhelds. You know, and I think it’s smart with all the shimming and skimming going on out there. I’ve been studying that stuff a lot lately. Especially the shimming. You know, it’s like why don’t you, why do you think I Steve,

Chris Dryden (29:07):

Tell some difference? Yeah. Tell people what shimming and skimming are cuz a lot of people may not know about it.

Steve Taylor (29:12):

Yeah. So the skimming is a hardware focal point to, uh, track your data and steal it and then sell it. Uh, it usually goes in the Lebanese loop overseas and then, uh, sold out to branches of thieves here in the United States who go around the different ATMs and they’ll hit about 10 or 12 in one night and suck out about who knows how much money, a hundred thousand, 200,000

Chris Dryden (29:41):

Down and how and how does skimming happen.

Steve Taylor (29:45):

Okay. So you can insert there, there’s two ways of doing it. If you’re talking unattended, there’s uh, in the card insertion, uh, there’s uh, kind of a reader thing they have in and you’re, you’re never gonna know it. And then they’re able to track your pin too, cuz it’s gonna be on camera. Um, the other thing that’s been happening in fuel tanks, uh, these are known as mechanics, that’s what they call ’em down in Florida. Uh, they’re able to get into a fuel pump and not attached directly to the card reader and get your information that way. But it pulls it from the back end off the chips on the, uh, processing board. It’s, it’s insanely basically hacking into it. Yeah. Yeah. They’re really good at it. And so every time they find a way, if you see Krebs security write something, just know that Krebs is telling them, okay, you guys gotta go next level. We got you here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they’re gonna go next level. So then what is shimming? Shimming is that internal part I was just talking about.

Chris Dryden (30:48):

Okay. So the skimming is external, the shimming is internal and internal And EMV doesn’t protect against that.

Steve Taylor (30:54):

No, it helps it. Wow. It helps it. I didn’t know that. Okay. So the original concept around E M V security, you know, nothing’s a hundred percent right. You know, when it comes to security. So,

Chris Dryden (31:09):

Um, no, not when there’s people trying to hack it. Yep.

Steve Taylor (31:12):

Yeah. And you know, uh Exactly. But, you know, and then if you’re talking about the security of the POS device in a store being locked down, PCIs always saying Lock it down, lock it down, you know, again, what’s the purpose of handhelds? They’re, they’re so common. They’re everywhere, but they lock the handhelds down. What is wrong with you? You know?

Chris Dryden (31:32):

Yeah. It doesn’t make sense either to a certain degree cuz E M V was supposed to like take away the data storage and so it takes away the, you know, to a certain degree it takes away the opportunity if somebody did take a physical device that Yeah. That they would be able to do anything with it. Like now without any storage on the device. Um, you know, it makes it a like, like a less of a concern to me.

Steve Taylor (31:57):

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll see, I had a neighbor get ripped off last October, $30,000, uh, Wells Fargo branch outside, wall-mounted atm, uh, had a, had a skimmer on it and he finally, he was lucky he got his money back.

Chris Dryden (32:19):

Yeah. Trust me. Dealing with a bank <laugh>, right?

Steve Taylor (32:23):


Chris Dryden (32:24):

Tried to get money from a bank <laugh>. Good job that you didn’t put in it.

Steve Taylor (32:28):

Yeah. You got real lucky. But the, you know, the thing with the upcoming, uh, rule changes, regulations, these are going to be taken very serious by the ada. It’s not gonna be one of those overlooked things. It’s gonna be as prominent as parking.

Chris Dryden (32:45):

When do those go in effect?

Steve Taylor (32:47):

Uh, we don’t know yet because the MPMs haven’t been published yet. The MPMs, once they have their comment period, they’ll come out, which is typically a month, maybe 45 days max. Um, they’ll come back out and say, okay, final rule, they might just throw it out there and not tell you. It could be very quick, it could take a few months. We don’t know.

Chris Dryden (33:11):

Yeah. I’ve been through that process in other areas and I’ve seen it take even longer. But it depends on the lobby groups that are out there.

Steve Taylor (33:18):

Uh, right, yeah. Right. This isn’t that involved. The a and p RM for this only had 81 I think comments

Chris Dryden (33:26):

And Oh, that’s not bad at

Steve Taylor (33:27):

All. 90 Yeah. 90% of it was just by a regular person, not a company, not, you know, and then some of the big advocacy groups in accessibility weighed in and uh, like I say, Tesla weighed in on it too, you know, uh, cuz they knew accessibility was coming out. D o t hired the access board to write their M P R M to do all the studies and figure it out for ’em for the nevy, you know, and what gets me is you have all these EV charging stations, they want a chunk of that seven and a half billion dollars. Right?

Chris Dryden (34:06):

Yeah. Of course

Steve Taylor (34:06):

They want the federal money, but they don’t wanna abide by federal accessibility law. Make that make sense?

Chris Dryden (34:14):

Yeah. I I, I look, I’m, I’m, I’m in wholesale agreement with you, <laugh>. I don’t, you know, it’s interesting. I I don’t see a world where like you can strip away a lot of regulation. I don’t think that this is something that you’re ever going to strip away in our society unless, you know, government fails. Sure. And hopefully not. Right. I think that this is one of those things. Yeah. I think that, that this is one of those things where at least in America, you’ll see, you know, some form as long as it’s not abused some form of protection of like an actual protective class. I mean, people that if it’s enforced. If it’s enforced. Totally. Yeah.

Steve Taylor (34:47):

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I, I’ve worked with a group in dc uh, Sid, and they’re the power players in a d a, you know, globally. And just to give you an idea, last night I got a text from one of my team out there, and she sent a picture, she’s at the UN this week, and she, uh, she was teasing me because I just had a zoom with this guy about a month ago, a meeting. And she’s sitting at there at dinner or something with him, takes pictures, sent, texted it to me last night, and it’s the policy for a d a for Walmart corporation. Hmm. You know, and I’m going, man, Victor gets around <laugh> one, one day. He is on a Zoom with me, the next, he’s at the UN for the C, uh, what they call a conventional rights on persons with disabilities, C R P D. And that’s going on this week there. I was invited to that, but, uh, I just don’t want to go to New York with all the sky problems, you know? Have you seen that all the smog, fog,

Chris Dryden (35:49):

Fire? I I think it’s actually dissipated now. I was, uh oh, has it? Yeah. I, I, I I think so. I think the late last week was the worst of it.

Steve Taylor (35:58):

Oh, okay. Well, still <laugh> anyway, but, uh, like I say, the laws are very detailed. It’s assistive technology. Uh, I want to go back to that term. Uh, there’s a whole assistive technology act in play as well, you know, so we’re talking about an industry here that Visa says if you’re gonna accept our card, man, our, and use our network, you have to abide by accessibility laws in the country in which your device is deployed. Why doesn’t Verifone or Ingenico listen to that? Why doesn’t PAX listen to that? Well, I told,

Chris Dryden (36:37):

I’ve told them, look, I think that’s a really good question. Told them who’s supposed to educate ’em and why. I I, I, I

Steve Taylor (36:42):

Have educated them.

Chris Dryden (36:43):

I get it. But if you don’t have anybody standing, look, there’s the carrot and the stick man mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you, and there’s a lot of people, if it’s a change, I mean, look at how long the card issuers resisted E M V, right? I mean, like the, the, the cost of issuing the card was the dominant factor in delaying that for so long. And I can’t remember exactly what the difference was. I mean, the mag stripe was like cents to produce, and then when we went, they went to the chip technology, it went up to like 60 cents or something like that. I mean, at least initially mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think it was that initial added expense that was gonna go into issuing a new card. And today, like cards are so disposable. Like, I mean, just ask my partner James Hoover, he has to get you cards all the time. <laugh>. Exactly. That’s an inside joke. Joke. He

Steve Taylor (37:37):


Chris Dryden (37:37):

Huh? No, it’s a, it’s an inside joke. His wife shops online a lot. Okay. Um, and, and so I just, that, but that, that increased expense really, it pushed off e EMV for at least two to three years back in the early 2000 tens. And, and I can see somebody like Ingenico and Verifone looking at this, even an easy modification. What I don’t understand is why do they don’t partner with somebody like you mm-hmm. <affirmative> to say, Hey, in addition, here’s some, here’s some regulation that exists and here’s some regulation that’s coming out. And here’s a very simple solution for you that we have in partnering with Taylor pos. That’s what kind of blows my mind is that there’s not some sort of, um, seeing the, the, like not, not looking at you as, um, somebody that’s being disruptive, but more looking at you as a partner that’s solutions oriented. That’s what I don’t understand. You’ve

Jeremy Stock (38:38):

Already done the groundwork. Yeah. You have the product already ready to go. Oh,

Steve Taylor (38:42):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s been ready to go. It abides by every assistive technology rule there is in the ada, it abides by the requirements of PCI in the, in the PTs, P O i and it’s honoring the, uh, acceptance guide from Visa. How do you go wrong doing everything right? Yeah.

Chris Dryden (39:06):

You know, I, I agree with you.

Steve Taylor (39:08):

So, but the way the industry really works is Verifone has their buddy making, mount making company that they send everybody to, and Genco has their mount making buddy. They send everybody to Pax has their mount making buddy they send everybody to.

Chris Dryden (39:26):

But are they promoting it? That would be my question. Like, are they educating and promoting?

Steve Taylor (39:32):

No, they don’t know. They could. No. You know, I know more. Oh man, every time I say this, I feel like Trump, I know more about this than anybody in the world <laugh>, because Trump’s always saying that. Right. But it’s, it’s true. And when you have the very individual George Bush Sr. Appointed to create the a d a who wrote 5 0 4 and 5 0 8 i c t working with you directly, do you not have the largest database of knowledge in the world working with you?

Chris Dryden (40:10):

Yeah. Look, this is, I think so. And I, and I, and it’s so simple, right? I mean, that’s, that’s the thing that’s probably frustrating from your perspective is it’s just really, really simple and

Steve Taylor (40:19):

Yeah. It’s, it’s simple. I took it down. It’s, I’ve got it down to Barney level. It took years to be able to go down to Barney level, you know? Sure. And,

Chris Dryden (40:30):

Um, you might have to explain that to some of our listeners, <laugh>.

Steve Taylor (40:33):

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. There’s gonna be, uh, Barney

Chris Dryden (40:35):

Audience bar. Yeah. I actually, I, I actually watched a lot of cable TV growing up, so I’m, I’m aware of who that is.

Steve Taylor (40:42):

Yeah. Barney was big. Just Google Barney Purple suit and you can watch videos on Barney. Um, uh, you know, they always say, you know, right. Like second grade, but sometimes you can’t help but have to go a little bit higher because you’re talking to I it people too, you know, and you’re then you’re talking to C-suite people and then you’re talking to, uh, lawyers. You’re talking to just a, a, a whole spectrum when it comes to this. Well, Bob, what do you recommend? You’re my lawyer. Bob doesn’t know.

Chris Dryden (41:24):

Well, that’s what I’m saying. I don’t think most people know. Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons that we wanted to have you on was because, and

Steve Taylor (41:29):

That’s okay. This is the birth of that.

Chris Dryden (41:31):

Yeah. And that’s like, I really believe, look, there’s a lot of laws that get passed. Yeah. Some of ’em I think are worthwhile. Some of ’em I don’t. But at the, in the end, it’s always the law. And if it’s gonna be enforced, I think it’s better to know about it than to not know about it. Yeah. So that was really the drive to have you on here was just to really bring awareness to this. Cuz I do believe it is something that is gonna come to the forefront. And I also believe it’s gonna be a place where there is significant litigation associated with compliance.

Steve Taylor (42:10):

Yeah. Uh, th there will be, and let me tell you, I’ve already had, I think I just had my fourth call within three various groups at the Pentagon. Okay. Those calls have already taken place. And, uh, you know, there’s a lot of exchanges, a lot of commissaries, and so there’s wheels turning. Yeah.

Jeremy Stock (42:31):

Like Chris said, regulation’s on its way.

Chris Dryden (42:33):

Yeah. I, I, I don’t, I mean, when I look at government, like, you know, the idea of small government <laugh>, that’s like a pipe dream in my lifetime. The expansion of the federal apparatus is gigantic. I mean, all you have to do is look at the, you brought up a good point. Look at the military budget and how large that is today, and how large the mil, even though it’s been scaled back to a certain degree, government’s not going to get smaller. The population’s gonna continue to grow. I, I just don’t, I I, I mean, unless there’s a cataclysmic climate event that really alters things, I don’t see government ever getting smaller in my lifetime. And I’m hoping I’ve got a significant amount of that left. We’ll see. But I, I just, I think it’s just really important that this, there’s some sort of acknowledgement and, and like a light to be shined on this particular subject. It’s, and look, I’m not gonna say it’s the most like spicy chacha, you know, like really gets you going, but it’s one of those things that’s just going to be there. And I think I, I, I mean, I was amazed that I hadn’t really stumbled upon it before. And, and that’s, you know, like, I’m glad that you’re on here, Steve, to actually educate and give people some awareness.

Steve Taylor (43:54):


Jeremy Stock (43:54):

Advocating too for people that, you know, don’t have a lot of advocates out there.

Steve Taylor (43:58):

Just Yeah. This is simple. I got it down to Barney level. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know. Yeah. And, uh,

Chris Dryden (44:05):

And installation. And installation should be pretty simple. I like that’s the, that’s the thing. I I, I, it’s how much is a unit that you sell? Uh, retail. You give us retail price. You don’t have to tell mes

Steve Taylor (44:16):

Retail, we’ve been pulling them out at 3 29, but also consider 50% tax credit brings it down to around 150 something.

Chris Dryden (44:25):

Yeah, no, that’s, that’s great. And that’s the thing, anytime you’re gonna have a mounted device, it’s gonna have to have accessibility and, and I, yeah. I don’t see those going away in the next 20 years.

Steve Taylor (44:37):

No. And these do cost a little more to make than the average cuz it’s got details, you know, within the springing the way we do, uh, the, you know, the, the backside mounting that matter matters, the pressures, uh, the Tite amount we have to put in is actually very exact. It’s weird if, you know,

Chris Dryden (44:58):

Just if I was a salesperson that wanted to order some of these to, you actually use this as some sort of sales, you know, sales presentation opportunity to, to talk to somebody, how would they go about ordering these or getting ahold of you? I mean, I, I think that’s really important for them to know.

Steve Taylor (45:17):

Yeah. Just go to taylor and call me or use the contact form. Usually I get calls from, you know, those guys that, uh, re redo the parking they paint and all that. I get calls from those guys all the time, and I don’t know how they find me, but it’s usually the stores that they’re doing work for are being sued. Hmm. And so they go out in the hunt to find an actual accessible mount. And I’m it. Yep. That’s, that’s all that’s out there. You know, there’s a couple other companies that have tried. They say it’s helpful with wheelchair and they didn’t read anything. You know, they didn’t read the rags, they didn’t read the requirements. They, they just didn’t. Absolutely. And, you know, so well

Jeremy Stock (46:07):

Steve, we hope that this podcast in some small way helps to, uh, get the word out there even more. I’m sure Chris, in your conversations with Global’s clients and whatnot, is gonna also help continue to educate and, and bring this subject up. I’m gonna give you the last word today, Steve. Um, Chris, did you have any final questions or any thoughts?

Chris Dryden (46:25):

No, I just, I appreciate you being on, this is actually the second take on this thing with Steve. Yeah. We, uh, we were new in our, I think you were the first podcast and Yeah. I think we had some technical difficulties with it and we were unable to, uh, save, save the podcast. So we’re not podcast. I mean, it says payment.

Steve Taylor (46:44):

Yeah. We’re not experts.

Chris Dryden (46:45):

No, not, not, not in the podcast part. The payments part. Yes. But not the podcast. So we appreciate, we appreciate you doing a second take on this, Steve. I just wanted to say that.

Steve Taylor (46:55):

Yeah, no, no, it’s all good. Um, you, if I had anything to say, you know, scrap, here, let me put, let me end with this. The view on standard mounting that you see today is literally considered discriminatory mounted point of sale systems out there. Think about that. And it’s not that they’re being intentionally discrimination, you know, they’re not, but once they know that there is a fix for it, then they purposely become discriminatory Excellent. Because they’re not fixing it. Right?

Chris Dryden (47:35):

Yeah. I actually think that’s a good perspective Yeah. For people. Like when you know something and you willfully ignore it, and I mean, it’s one thing if you’ve gotta change your entire storefront to make it accessible. It’s another thing if all you have to do is buy amount. Yeah. And with simple instructions, install it,

Jeremy Stock (47:53):

Send 50 bucks and

Chris Dryden (47:54):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it just makes total sense to do it. Yeah.

Steve Taylor (47:57):

And a cashier can install it.

Chris Dryden (48:00):

Yeah. That’s the thing. I mean, I’m the most, I’m the most, uh, you know, non handy guy around and I could do this,

Steve Taylor (48:07):

You know, I went to a friend’s store and um, she had to go around back and then come back out. I installed a out on her counter in under a minute and I had her device locked down onto the stand. And she goes, when did that happen? I go between you walking in <laugh> now if you’re gonna do that for a tier one or tier two level merchant level. Right. You know, the big boys little bit different thing, but for a simple countertop. And it was glass also. Hmm. And I showed a picture of it to a friend of mine. He goes, how did you get that thing to stand our glass? I said, 3M dual side tape.

Chris Dryden (48:54):

Yeah. Look, I, that’s the thing, I I, I look at this and it’s such an, it’s almost like when you’re in the checkout line and there’s accessories there and you’re like pushing accessories in your face as far as, you know, Hey, buy this, buy this, buy this. It’s, you know, and you look at it, it’s enticing cuz it has Yeah. You know, some sort of either like satisfying, uh, a need or a want mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. This is definitely in that category. If I’m a merchant services salesperson of, Hey, this is low-hanging fruit. Yeah,

Steve Taylor (49:24):

It is. It really is. It gets you in any door and it gets the conversation started. And if I were to go sell merchant services again, I used to have leads. They all came to me. I never had to go outbound, uh, in the way back when. But if I were to go out there on the road today and hit in stores, I, I’m carrying one of these with me and talk, starting the conversation with a d a, get into the payments, get into the equipment and don’t do it the other way cuz they get hit every day by, we could lower your rates. Would you like to get solar while we’re talking about your emergency services?

Chris Dryden (50:06):

Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Steve Taylor (50:07):

You know,

Jeremy Stock (50:09):

Well maybe something will start after this podcast.

Steve Taylor (50:11):

Yeah. Steve, it was

Jeremy Stock (50:12):

A real pleasure having you on today. Everyone, please, uh, we would love for you to go check out uh, taylor pos com. Uh, Steve, again, it was a real pleasure. Chris, thank you for being with us today. Of course. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Payments Experts podcast. New episodes first and third Thursdays. If you’re interested in learning more about PEP and how Global Legal Law Firm may be able to assist you, please visit us at global legal law To schedule a free consultation, give us a call at (888) 846-8901 or email And once again, thank you for listening. 1, 2, 3.

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