PEP Episode 023 — Accessibility Barriers in Payment Systems | ADA Compliance & Impact on Disabled Customers

Podcast Description:

Uncover the silent barriers that individuals with disabilities face when it comes to payment accessibility. In a powerful discussion with Steve Taylor of Taylor Stands https://www.taylorpos.com/ we illuminate the pressing need for ADA compliance within the payment industry, unraveling the often-overlooked deficiencies in point-of-sale (POS) systems.

This episode promises to shed light on the significant legal and ethical ramifications businesses encounter when their checkout technology excludes those who are physically challenged. Steve’s expertise guides us through the maze of Department of Justice and Visa guidelines that mandate inclusive design, emphasizing the transformative impact of accessible mounting for card readers. Witness how education plays a pivotal role in the advancement of ADA compliance, as we recount tales of industry ignorance and unveil Taylor Stands’ innovative solution.

Ensuring that no customer is left behind, we delve into the anticipated regulatory changes affecting ATMs and kiosks, and the collective effort required from device vendors, acquirers, and merchants to meet the evolving standards. Listen and be inspired by our call to action for a future where every transaction is dignified and accessible to all, including our honored disabled veterans.

Podcast Transcription

Steve Taylor (00:00):

This is gonna be industry changing, um, across the board. It’s going to have, uh, very visible enforcement, very visible.

Jeremy Stock (00:13):

Welcome to the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. We hope you enjoy this episode

Jeremy Stock (00:27):

Today. We are very excited to have joining us remotely. Steve Taylor of Taylor Brands. Steve, you’ve been a previous guest on, uh, the Payments Experts podcast. We’re really excited to have you back. This is kind of a, um, kind of an update to our previous, uh, discussion. There’s a new, uh, rule that has come down, um, a DA 36.402. Steve, thank you for joining in us. Would you mind telling our listeners who maybe haven’t heard the first episode to a little bit about yourself, what, uh, Taylor stands does, and then we can jump into this rule?

Steve Taylor (01:06):

Yeah. So, uh, we previously talked about our point of sale mounting, and don’t confuse it with traditional regular mounting you see at a store. Um, we work specifically in the space of the A DA, the Architectural Barriers Act, and with the ICT, which is known as 5 0 8 TC ITC and the government. So both public, uh, title three and 5 0 8 space. Um, now this new, uh, it’s, it’s really not new. It’s kind of new and not new. The 36, uh, 4 0 2 is about alteration and building. And I can tell you right now, if someone doesn’t have assistive technology at their point of sale card with their point of sale card reader at checkout, uh, they are out of building code. And that’s what’s important to know about 36 4 0 2. Um,

Jeremy Stock (02:12):

And that, that’s exactly Steve, what we talked about previously, which is that that wasn’t seeming, seeming to be followed. Businesses weren’t required, even though they were doing all those other things, the RA, wheelchair ramps, railing parking spots, you mentioned the bathrooms were always seemed to be very a DA compliant. And yet, when it came to the POS, the point of sale, all of a sudden no compliance.

Steve Taylor (02:39):

Yeah, that’s exactly it. And that’s why I said, why do businesses have accessible parking and data compromising checkout for the user? And one of the problems that happens all over the country all the time, when someone is there by themself in a wheelchair and they cannot reach that point of sale device, and let’s say they’re using a pin based debit, they tend to hand the card to the cashier and have to divulge the pin, which is highly immoral, unethical, and pretty illegal. You’re, you’re compromising that person based on their debil, uh, you know, disability. Right. And that is discrimination. It ties into another section called 28 CFR part 35. And so those two go together. And so when you’re talking about alteration, that’s what it’s under in the a DA. And I had a good long talk with the Department of Justice, civil Rights Division the other day on this topic, and had ’em just validate a number of things down the line and alteration.

Steve Taylor (03:54):

Let’s say you’re a new business coming in, got a brand new building, building code, guy or gal has signed off on it, said, you guys are good to move in and let’s say you’re gonna have your point of sale stuff brought in. Well, the second you put that mount on that checkout counter, it becomes part of that fixed element. That fixed element then requires a DA, um, accessible mounting. And, um, there’s other mounting companies that have mounts that they say, oh, this is helpful with a DA, it doesn’t follow anything about the a DA, they’re just selling you, selling you a pipe dream. Uh, ADA’s very, you say more

Jeremy Stock (04:40):

About that, Steve, in what sense? In what sense Does it have nothing to do with the ada? A

Steve Taylor (04:45):

Well, um, they’re just regular amounts that don’t do anything.

Jeremy Stock (04:51):

Do they, they claim, do they claim to be compliant with a DA? Are they making those sorts of, uh, claims?

Steve Taylor (04:57):

Yes. Yes. Um, they’re, I’m not gonna name the company. They’re very big in mounts. A few years back, we were working with a company in Genco sent to us called The Room Store based outta Minneapolis. And this guy, the head of it, wanted to work with us, and, uh, we were gonna have this company go ahead and make a batch in Minneapolis, because it was local.

Steve Taylor (05:25):

Their sales guy went in there, tore our stands up, and sold ’em their own brand and said, oh, these are a DA that really happened. Wow. And, uh, I have photos from a Denny’s, my local Denny’s, if you were to use this thing from a wheelchair, it’s a horrible mount. This thing would knock you on the head. I’ll send you the pictures so you can see ’em after this. Um, and it, it would literally knock you on the head. It’s not usable. And I was showing the manager my, my mount, and he goes, when’s that coming out? Well, we happen to be in a big production run right now. And, um, so as soon as it wraps up, I’m gonna, they’re buying it. They’re gonna put it in. A number of restaurants are around here. Um, it has to have the ada, a operable part, which is the u-shaped pole.

Steve Taylor (06:23):

So slide downs, uh, arm extenders, any of that stuff. If it would work, I would’ve implemented it years ago. Mm-Hmm. It doesn’t work. It, you have to have that u-shaped pole. It has to be able to dismount from its base. It has to get into the hand or hands of the card holder. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, visa, uh, with their transaction device guidance. Uh, 3.2, uh, section 2.6, same thing. If you are going to mount, it has to be mounted for accessibility. If you accept visa, it’s right in their guide. Wow. You know? Yeah. And so when you tie everything together, these businesses have a big problem. But how you have to approach it for most businesses to understand is tell ’em in the first place they’re in code violation with building compliance.

Jeremy Stock (07:28):

Now, Steve, has that always been the case, or are you saying that this 36.402 is bringing this more to the for?

Steve Taylor (07:36):

Okay. It’s, it’s being brought more to the, for, it’s been around a long time, but there was an update to it in 21. So just a couple of years ago, there were amendments made to this. And this is a key part. I’m gonna go ahead and read this because it’s, uh, on my desktop all the time. Anyway, any altered features of a facility that can be made accessible, shall be made accessible, uh, if providing accessibility and conformance with this section to individuals with certain disabilities, EG, those use, who use wheelchairs would not be feasible. The facility shall be made accessible to person with other types of disabilities. Those who use crutches, you know, so there’s various parts of the building, but that point of checkout, the second you set amount on it, and it’s not an a DA style stand with the operable part. And, uh, the dismount takes you right out of building code compliance and throws you right into discrimination. Wow. And that’s a fact. I guarantee you the only people, the only businesses that are in compliance are the ones that have our amounts. I guarantee it. Everybody else is out of building code.

Jeremy Stock (08:57):

So, Steve, so let’s talk about the, what I might say, you know, the real world or rubber hitting the road in the sense of how long is it gonna take for this to trickle down to where people are gonna actually realize, hey, not only, not only are we not in compliance with the aada A we might actually be objectively discriminating with how we are setting up our POS. When is this, when are we gonna start to see these changes, do you think?

Steve Taylor (09:27):

I think as soon as the industry point of sale distribution companies get on board, they have reached to everybody out there. And I’ll tell you right now, I don’t know what it is with them, but they don’t want to touch the a DA for some reason. They prefer to leave their customers vulnerable to lawsuits, is the best answer I have. Wow. I can’t find any other reason because they know about this.

Jeremy Stock (10:06):

This is it. It’s reminding me of our, you know, our previous episode. Um, and by the way, Steve, I wanted to mention, and, and for those listening right now, please do go back and watch our previous interview, um, of Steve Taylor, um, with, with Taylor stands. Um, it was a great episode, believe it or not, Steve, that was really one of the highest viewed episodes, uh, we had to date, uh, up to that point. It was a great episode. Very, very interesting. Very. And as we discussed on that podcast episode itself, for some reason, this is not being talked about very much in the payments world, and it seems like one, it ought to change that, there’s no doubt about that. It, it ought to. The second question is, is, you know, now it seems like they’re going to be forced to maybe finally, um, after all this time, how optimistic are you, Steve? What, what are your thoughts here in terms of being rolled out and, and people actually making these changes and, and actually really coming to education?

Steve Taylor (11:07):

Uh, what’s gonna happen is we still have the NPRM, it was due out in December. Uh, a little bit of a delay. It’s gonna be a couple more months. And I think once that hits the circuit, uh, things are gonna get really, really loud out there, uh, because it’s going to affect everything from the countertop to the ATM, the fuel dispenser kiosks, um, vending, you know, uh, yeah. So all, all of them. But, um, visa needs to kind of go, guys, we got this TADG three, two, you know, section 2.6 on accessibility. It even calls out the distributors, affiliates, subsidiaries, uh, ISOs, MSPs. And it says, all of you are responsible to do this. You have to abide by the law Yeah. In which the device is deployed. Right. You know, um, the, here’s the exact words. Device vendors and acquirers are responsible for ensuring that all customer facing devices adhere to any a DA accessibility requirements for the country in which they operate.

Steve Taylor (12:26):

And all country, most countries, 80 countries, something like that, have disabilities laws, and that’s why they put it there. USA being the biggest. Right. And they tend to follow the USA laws, um, because it’s well structured, you know, when it, when it comes to that. But it goes on. Uh, and of course, the merchants are responsible too. And so we, I, I was talking with someone the other day and they said, why would you wanna sue a merchant? I said, I, I personally don’t. I built the fix to the problem for the merchant. I go, but the ones that do, I said, merchants, the ones in the know are doing this maliciously, they’re avoiding it with mal intent. The the small merchant, they don’t know this stuff. And so it goes in where the ETA should have an educational series on this. Right. Because they’ve got a lot of members. Right. Right. Um,

Jeremy Stock (13:26):

Have you, have you, have you talked with ETA?

Steve Taylor (13:28):

Have you I, I talked with ETA back in 17 when I had a booth. Um, I think I talked a little bit about it in that prior video. Yes. And, um, we ended up on a call with several people on the call. Few of the pause, uh, industry distributors were on the call. Some I, and don’t take this wrong, ’cause I know you’re in, in law, but they had some hack attorney on there that didn’t know anything about the A DA, um, trying to give input on what’s proper of the Aada a it, it was a joke. Yeah. And I go, I go, what is going on with these people? You know? And again, I’ll say with an industry that prides itself on compliance, they’re dismissing people, human beings, just because they have a disability. Yeah,

Jeremy Stock (14:26):

Absolutely.

Steve Taylor (14:27):

It’s very discriminatory, you know, and, uh, well, it’s

Jeremy Stock (14:30):

Disturbing. You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s commentary. It’s a commentary. I hate to say it on the, you know, let’s face it, it’s a commentary on, on capitalism to some extent. It’s a commentary on, uh, the marketplace. You know, it’s, um, yeah. You know, and it’s, it’s unfortunate that, that this happens. But that’s why these regulations are put in place. You know, I think people, when, when all is said and done, people want to do the right thing, you know? But oftentimes, as you mentioned already, there is an educational element to this. Steve, I I, I’ll refresh our audience’s memory. When you and I first contacted when you first reached out to global, that was a long time ago now. Yeah. And we had those initial conversations. I brought your, uh, concerns, you know, to, uh, Christopher Dryden, who’s the founding partner of the firm. He’s been in payments for over 15 years, day in, day out, nothing but payments. He was completely, really unaware

Jeremy Stock (15:27):

Yeah. Of all of this. And I don’t say that to his, you know, of course, to his detriment. I’m saying that ’cause it’s, it is not talked about in this industry very much. Yeah. And that says a lot. And so we’re grateful, you know, you mentioned that hack attorney, whoever that was, we pride ourselves here a global legal, you know, we want to do the right thing. We want to bring this to the attention of our clientele. Right. You know, ’cause who are often, you know, they’re, many of them are, they’re ISOs themselves, right? They are. They’re payment providers, they’re pss, et cetera. So we’d be more than happy to, and that’s why we we’re having you on Steve, ’cause we really appreciate your insight and your expertise, your genuine expertise in this area. Can you talk about Taylor stands? You mentioned you provide a solution,

Steve Taylor (16:13):

It’s Yeah.

Jeremy Stock (16:14):

A solution that should be in high, high demand. What? Yeah, what do you bring, Steve? Tell us about it.

Steve Taylor (16:20):

So what we bring are, uh, a basic, uh, full on operable part using operation, using, um, let me back up a little bit. Uh, the a DA requires an operable part that abides by what they call a DA operations of no pinching, twisting, tight, grasping, twisting of the wrist, and has a release pressure of under five pounds. And that allows the device to come off its mount, which is tilt and swivel also. But, so the person can get the card reader in their hand, use it privately, use it safely, and have good screen interaction. So, and just just to note, I’m gonna step outside the a DAA second and hop into PCI requirements. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And in PCI point of interaction, the POI under pin transaction security requires that a person in a wheelchair, as a good example, is able to do pin entry using their body. Now, can you use your body to shield for pen entry with a regular mounted device? You can’t do it. Not easily.

Jeremy Stock (17:52):

Yeah.

Steve Taylor (17:53):

There’s no way to do it

Jeremy Stock (17:54):

Unless you’re Yeah. Hunched over the thing completely. And

Steve Taylor (17:57):

I offered to throw somebody on top of one once <laugh>. I said, that’s the best I can do at this store. Yeah,

Jeremy Stock (18:08):

Absolutely.

Steve Taylor (18:09):

You know, so again, when you’ve got not only Visa saying, Hey, get it together, you’ve got PCI saying, Hey, get it together. You’ve got the a DA, you’ve got the Architectural Barriers Act, you know, uh, it’s, it’s airtight. You can’t get around it and eyes remain closed. And look the other way, the biggest frustration for me, uh, and by the way, we do custom ones too, um, on the stand with the bases, uh, there’s a lot of chains out there I know that have, you know, a few thousand mounts. Right. And they’ve got particular drill hole designs. We go back in and re you know, we’ll have, uh, undr bases that we can match to their existing Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that’s another thing we can do too. But we have to keep the very, uh, strict requirements of that U-shaped pole with the operation require requirements intact.

Steve Taylor (19:09):

It has to be able to dismount off its mount. And of course, you know, stay secure on the mount per PCI requirements. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, the two go hand in hand. You just have to make it, like I say, usable for people in wheelchairs. Little people. Uh, and another one, here’s a real strange one, uh, and I learned this from a Walmart cashier, and she says, we get, uh, tall people, they’re, they’re just tall with very bad backs and poor eyesight. And because the screens aren’t exactly large, uh, they have a hard time working with it. And if they have big hands and you have that rubber guard pin guard around it, yeah. Yeah. Their dexterity or larger hands can’t work it properly. Sure. And the, the, the problem that runs in there is that PCI, if it was tested with that rubber on there, it, that machine gets disqualified from compliance if that rubber part is removed. But yet it needs to be removed if you’re gonna deal with that section of the a DA with dexterity problems. Yeah. Or larger hand. Sure.

Jeremy Stock (20:31):

I, Steve, I’ve experienced it myself, that I’m sure you have yourself. There’s certain, you gotta get your finger in there. You gotta kinda look to the angle, you know, it’s doing its job, it’s trying to shield your pin from being seen by those around. But sometimes it is, it, it, depending on the angle of the, of the machine, you have to kind of angle your finger in there, make sure you’re not hitting the wrong button, you know, the wrong number, et cetera. Yep. And I can only imagine for someone who has physical limitations with their hands or, or, you know, size or something of that nature.

Steve Taylor (21:00):

Exactly. So, you know, the industry also, and, and the businesses, and especially these compliance officers, who are they? Why aren’t they concerned about compliance? I don’t understand that. Um, I should have had most of the industry reach out to me by now. I’ve been doing this long enough. And, uh, it, it just, it, you know, it, it doesn’t sound fun to get a $75,000 fine from the a DA does it?

Jeremy Stock (21:33):

No, it doesn’t. And that’s, I think, but Steve, how many examples do you know of where that fine was actually levied?

Steve Taylor (21:41):

Um, there’s a, there’s quite a few printed over the years in the archives on the Do OJ Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they’re a, in terms of payments The time. Yeah. In

Jeremy Stock (21:49):

Terms of POS though.

Steve Taylor (21:51):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. The, the big, the last big one, I think there was something called Shop Shop and Save or something, um, um, Pennsylvania area that they have like 300 grocery stores and they got hit real hard. Um, it was, it was a big find. Yeah. Real big find. And, um, I remember talking with the Attorney General and what was it, New Jersey or something. ’cause maybe they had some stores there. I’d have to go look in my email archives. And I was talking to her about this stuff and it, the lawsuit had already ended. It was posted on the a DA and she goes, Steve, I never knew about any of this stuff. We’re talking about a state attorney suing that didn’t know the stuff. I know. Right. And so she goes, I forwarded that over to the DOJ, you know, ’cause they need to know about this too. And I said, well, it’s in their rigs. I hope they know about this <laugh>. You know,

Jeremy Stock (22:59):

You’d hope so. You,

Steve Taylor (23:01):

I, I’d hope so.

Jeremy Stock (23:02):

Nothing surprises me anymore, Steve. I can say

Steve Taylor (23:04):

That. That’s, that’s true. Generally, people that call themselves experts, well, it’s questionable anymore. Um, so I see ’em on TV news all the time, and I don’t really, anyway, I’ll leave that one alone. Yeah. But, um, I’ve got, like I say, a decade in this deep, deep, deep in the trenches, and it’s what I specialize in. Yes. You know, so, so Steve,

Jeremy Stock (23:29):

That, that leads me to, to my next question. And you know, we, we, you had that conversation about merchants, right. And who wants to sue a merchant, and, and you made the, the point. Yeah. No one does. And it’s true, especially when we’re talking about the mom and pops, you know, these smaller entrepreneurs, um, because really, you don’t, at least I have a hard time putting blame on them. Uh, they’re trying to run a business. Yes. I’m sure they’re concerned, but they don’t know their options. They, they might not even know that these types of, uh, pss, uh, exist. Right. Right. That they Right. It depends on what salesman comes in their door and presents the POS options, which, as you say, is, other than Taylor stands, it’s probably not aada a compliant,

Steve Taylor (24:14):

But I guarantee it’s not. You

Jeremy Stock (24:16):

Guarantee it’s not. And the, you know, the merchant, I would argue in most cases, probably doesn’t know any better. So my question is, what I’m getting at is how, how do we bring more education? I I is do we have to go to, not just the vendors, but also I’m thinking of the ISOs, the ones that are making these deals in the first place to get the processing up and running to get the POS into the store. Um, is that where this education needs to happen? Mm.

Steve Taylor (24:49):

Kind of, uh, Paysafe, uh, in February did a blog and they talked, they got the information from me and they published it. And then a couple of weeks later they did it in their global newsletter and pointed to me, and one of the, the problems that happened in that blog, in that newsletter was Paysafe said, oh, we’re not selling these or distributing these, but here’s a good resource to go learn about it. Well, that just killed it right there. Yeah. Yeah. Completely killed it. Right.

Jeremy Stock (25:35):

Take us further, Steve. What, what should have happened?

Steve Taylor (25:38):

What should have happened? Paysafe should have been selling them and made the announcement.

Jeremy Stock (25:44):

Yeah. And someone big, like Paysafe, if, you know, one of these big, uh, movers in, in the industry, they make a change like that. I, I think you’d see a domino effect.

Steve Taylor (25:54):

It would’ve been a domino effect. Completely. And they could have really got ahead of the game. ’cause once this hits, you know, there, there’s a lot of point of sale, uh, checkout lawsuits. They’re, they’re, they happen all the time, uh, by those ambulance chaser type, um, ADA a Mm-Hmm.

Jeremy Stock (26:15):

<affirmative>. Yep. They go around, they go around looking for violations and send somebody in to, to be affected by it. And that’s their, that’s their case.

Steve Taylor (26:24):

Exactly. And a lot of people go, well, why don’t I hear, hear about it. I, uh, that’s because they were intimidated to, uh, just settling out. And that doesn’t make newspapers.

Jeremy Stock (26:37):

Right.

Steve Taylor (26:38):

Right. ’cause they don’t want to be embarrassed in the news about it. Yep. And so that’s where those lawsuits are. They, they stay in the shadows.

Jeremy Stock (26:47):

Yeah, sure. It makes sense.

Steve Taylor (26:49):

Yeah. But to go out and purposely hurt a small business instead of trying to help it, I mean, I, I’ll be frank, and if you gotta cut this out or beep it, do it, but it pisses me off Yeah. To go out and intentionally hurt a small business like that, that doesn’t know.

Jeremy Stock (27:06):

Right. Especially when, and here, I’ll give you a plug, Steve, especially when there are affordable, effective, compliant, a DA compliant POS, uh, is it alterations, what was the word you used? It’s

Steve Taylor (27:24):

Alteration alterations

Jeremy Stock (27:26):

That you provide that can make I, it sounds like Steve, you work on a custom level as well. You can fit pretty much any scenario.

Steve Taylor (27:35):

Huh? Any scenario.

Jeremy Stock (27:37):

Who’s your, your ideal customer? I take it, it’s not the liquor store on the corner. I take it you’re, ’cause you make these, uh, in a large volume, uh, to some extent. Who, who’s your ideal clientele? Steve?

Steve Taylor (27:53):

Man, there’s, there’s, there’s two kinds here, three kinds. Um, and they’re all equal to me. Uh, I sound like a politician when I say that, but it’s true. Uh, you’ve got the mom and pops because they’re, they’re so much bigger nationally, you know, so c stores are, um, especially the chains, the C store chains, the Circle K, uh,

Jeremy Stock (28:23):

Okay.

Steve Taylor (28:24):

Yeah. Wawa. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, then the big box brands. Um, so Best Buy Macy’s, you know, target, target would be a big one. Uh, of course, Walmart, you know. Sure. Walmart’s, Walmart, you, you know, what do you do? <laugh> own

Jeremy Stock (28:47):

Rules.

Steve Taylor (28:48):

Yeah. Right. And then you have about 15,000 commissaries in the military. And you have a lot of veterans, a lot of disabled veterans using those commissaries and, and point exchanges. That’s a point.

Jeremy Stock (29:03):

That’s a great point.

Steve Taylor (29:05):

Yep. So right now they’re all out of building code <laugh>. Wow. And, uh, yeah, this was just, in fact, next month I’m supposed to be doing a rather large podcast with my, uh, group in dc. Um, and that’s of course with the person that was appointed to start the a DA, uh, by George Bush. And, uh, he’s kind of the king of the a DA Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, we’re gonna be talking about the upcoming NPRM and other various acts, uh, aspects of all this. But it’s time, you know, to get this, um, really out there and ask the question to the distributors that deal with the ISOs and MSPs and businesses directly, what is it that you have against people with disabilities?

Jeremy Stock (30:08):

It’s a tough question.

Steve Taylor (30:09):

It’s a fair

Jeremy Stock (30:09):

Question. It is a fair question. It’s a, it’s, well, I should say it’s a fair question with a tough answer. Right. They, they’ve gotta, they’ve gotta face this. It, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s over ripe. Steve, can you summarize for us, um, you know, we greatly appreciate you coming on and I wanna, um, give you an opportunity to let our audience know where they can find you, how you like, would like them to contact you, et cetera. But before doing that, sum it all up for us. What, where are we today? Where are we now after this 36.402 and what do you see in the coming months?

Steve Taylor (30:46):

Okay. What I see in the coming months are all those a DA litigators, I just got through talking about Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they’re gonna get educated on my website, not by my own doing, but this arms them to go after tons of businesses. When this NPRM comes out and the payments industry, if they don’t get off that high horse and get in the game, their own customer base are gonna be getting hurt. And Yeah. Uh, especially like I say, when that NPRM comes out, and we are already starting to talk with building code, you know, cities and counties Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and states Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> all over the country right now and getting them up to snuff on this. So it’s on some checklists and some aren’t. Um, this needs to go universal with it. And again, you know, the 36 4 0 2 ties in with the 28 CFR part 36 for discrimination. And, you know, these, these, uh, other melt makers with large business spaces, they’re not gonna tell them about us. They’re not going to, ’cause they don’t wanna lose business. Right. Uh, yet they won’t work with us either.

Jeremy Stock (32:16):

Doesn’t make any sense to me.

Steve Taylor (32:17):

No, you only gotta get one. And if you have a multi-lane, it’s, you know, lane one and Lane five. Right, right. What’s the big deal? Yeah. Plus any individual sales service or return calendars. But it’s not that big a deal. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you get that 50% tax credit. So a couple hundred bucks saves you what, 75 grand. And if you’re in California, and we talked about this on that last podcast, the Cal FIN 1 3 0 8 2, it tells you straight up that the device must be removable from its mount from its unit. Yeah, yeah. But it has to have that operable part with all the operation requirements that we address. And it’s like, I, I just, I can’t comprehend how people can’t comprehend that. And, um, have an a DA sticker on their door. They have their a DA parking, they’ve got their a DA restroom

Jeremy Stock (33:26):

Right now, it’s, now it’s time to complete it. Now it’s time to

Steve Taylor (33:32):

Complete it. This completes a circle.

Jeremy Stock (33:34):

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Steve, I I feel like in many ways you are, you know, I, it’s not a great analogy, but you’re the canary in the coal mine, you know, and I feel like you’re saying, Hey look guys, this is coming. If they act on it now, you know, they can, I imagine, like you said, once this is actually enforced, prices are gonna go way up. ’cause then they’re really gonna have to

Steve Taylor (34:00):

Right. But it’s already enforced. Actually, e everything’s enforced already. Right. What what’s going on with the NPRM is just an update in language that’s going to expand upon what’s already here. I

Jeremy Stock (34:13):

See. I see.

Steve Taylor (34:14):

That’s a big deal. That’s coming because it’s going to affect any, anything. Now here’s the way the access board looks at anything that has a car, a credit card reader or debit reader in it, and it, it, they look at it as what’s called a transaction machine. So very different from calling it a pause terminal. And when people go prove it to me, show me, okay, it’s transaction machine in this language. That’s what they call it.

Jeremy Stock (34:48):

Right.

Steve Taylor (34:49):

You know? Yeah. But everybody’s so used to just saying pause machine or pause terminal. Right. And, uh, so the language ha has is gonna be updated and it’s gonna cover ev charging, uh, fuel pump. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, like I say, vending, um, kiosk. And, uh, obviously countertops gonna be re reinforced, you know, uh, with a little better direction. And a lot of the problem is people are told that reach and range is all they need for their, uh, mounting, which is a huge farce. That’s not true. That’s a construction standard. That doesn’t help anybody. You know, you’re anyone’s gonna have the logic to build the low counter that they’re told to do, you know? Um, but that doesn’t help the person with limited reach and strength now, does it.

Jeremy Stock (35:48):

Right. Or like you talked about before, we the, uh, blind people who are coming into these businesses, et cetera. Yeah.

Steve Taylor (35:55):

Yep. Yeah. Remember the taco shop Yep. Told you about that. I, I, they have that clover device and Clover has no tactile pen. State of California, you’re supposed to have tactile, it’s written in the law. And, uh, the DMV here, California DMV. Yeah. They’re the, the worst violators I’ve ever seen. It’s wild. Yeah, it really is. And, uh, of course, the USPS also, wow. You know, they have them super high counters. You gotta be nine feet tall to use those. Right, right. You know, I’m not nine feet tall, only six feet tall. <laugh> um, <laugh>. But, um, anyway, uh, but yeah, so you can reach me at, uh, taylor ps.com, point of cell, not the other POS point of cell. So taylor p os.com. Uh, my number is 6 2 3 203 0 8 7. Uh, feel free to call me, talk to me and, uh, see if we can help you out. And

Jeremy Stock (36:59):

Steve, it’s been, uh, awesome. Thank you for joining us. Uh, so quickly on short notice, this has been a great update to the previous episode. Uh, ladies and gentlemen listening right now. Um, this has been Steve Taylor joining us, uh, a friend of global legal law firm. And we’re just, we’re really thankful for your expertise, your knowledge on this very important issue. Please continue to keep us updated. Um, we wish you the best, uh, with your endeavors because your endeavors are going to actually help people with disabilities. And that’s really what this ultimately comes down to. So we’re, we’re very grateful for your time today. You’ve been listening to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Payments Experts Podcast. A podcast, a global legal law firm. Visit us online today at globallegallawfirm.com.